Show Notes
What happens when the career ends and the calendar opens up? For millions of people, the question shifts from “What do I do next?” to “What am I for now?”
Finding purpose after retirement is one of the defining spiritual challenges of our time, and most churches are underprepared to address it.
In this episode of Nuance, host Case Thorp sits down with Reverend Dr. David Kim, founder of Goldenwood, to explore vocation after retirement as a distinct and active calling. David argues that the later decades of life carry their own vocational weight, marked by availability, discernment, and gift. Drawing on his research and work with Goldenwood’s Nautilus program, he makes the case that calling is a dynamic relationship that stays highly active even after the 9-to-5 ends.
From navigating the “third-third” of life to challenging the myth that relevance fades with age, David’s work helps older generations integrate their wisdom into the church and the broader culture.
📚 Episode Resources:
Goldenwood: https://goldenwoodnyc.org
The Prophetic Imagination: 40th Anniversary Edition: https://a.co/d/03CM0llI
Nuance is a podcast of The Collaborative where we wrestle together about living our Christian faith in the public square. Nuance invites Christians to pursue the cultural and economic renewal by living out faith through work every facet of public life, including work, political engagement, the arts, philanthropy, and more.
Each episode, Dr. Case Thorp hosts conversations with Christian thinkers and leaders at the forefront of some of today’s most pressing issues around living a public faith.
Visit wecolabor.com for resources, events, and more.
Episode Transcript
Case Thorp
What happens when the climb is over? When the resume is finished, with the advent of retirement, the calendar opens up and the question is no longer, what do I do next? But what am I for now? Well, today we explore vocation after retirement, the wisdom years and what it means to offer the so-called non-income years unto the Lord. Well, friends, welcome to Nuance, where we seek to be faithful in the public square. I’m Case Thorp, and I’m honored today to have longtime friend, Reverend David Kim. David, welcome.
David Kim
Glad to be with you here, Case, so thank you for having me on.
Case Thorp
Well, you and I ran into each other in Boulder at the City Gate Gathering, but yet, gosh, we’ve known each other 10, 11, 12 years or so. Yeah. Well, you’ve been a great mentor and encourager as we have sought to follow in your stead here with The Collaborative and very grateful.
David Kim
Well, I appreciate those kind but undeserved words, so thank you.
Case Thorp
So it was at City Gate, friends, when David was sharing with me new work that he is doing, particularly looking at retirement and vocational call. And you know the R word retirement is not even in the Bible, so I like to actually call it the post-income years as Tammy Kaiser, a former elder and mentor of mine, would say. So we’re gonna look at that today. Well, let me tell you, David Kim is the founder of Goldenwood, a community devoted to seeing work revived by love by providing a wide range of individual and communal programs, as well as unconventional organizational consulting. David is currently writing this book or, where are you, David, in the research or writing stage of a book on retirement?
David Kim
Well, this is just research right now.
Case Thorp
Yeah, okay, well, we’ll get the fresh new insights. How the later decades of life are not a vocational afterthought, but a distinct calling marked by availability, discernment and gift. Let me encourage you, our listeners and viewers, please like, share, leave a comment. Our numbers have been doing great, and by doing that, you help us to reach even more folks. So David also is an ordained Presbyterian pastor and was chaplain on the Princeton University campus for many years.
And David, looking back as you are now mid-career and you know, retirement, gosh, you know, I can see it. I’m at 49 years old and I can see it or feel it a little bit. But then thinking back to your early days in chaplaincy, what sort of wisdom do you have about the scope and arc of your time?
David Kim
Well, just how much I think things change. I mean, you kind of assume in every season it’s just going to be like it is, but you know, there’s some unexpected twists and turns that come that help you realize, you know, you can plan all you want, but at the end of day, the Lord is the one who determines your steps. So I think in some ways life has just taught me to be ready for the unexpected. Don’t get too comfortable where you are.
Case Thorp
You know, I never could have dreamed or planned to be sitting right here doing this right now with you. That is true. Well, you use the term the third third of life. So if that first third somebody once said to me is a time to build, what would it say? Skill, the second third significance and the third third sort of legacy, and there is a better S word for that than legacy. I forget what that is. But I like that term, third third of life. Is that original to you?
David Kim
I don’t think so. I’ve heard it around, so I certainly did not originate it. But I think everyone struggles with how to call this period of life. And I think third-third just seems a bit innocuous. I think people have, I think sometimes settle for that terminology. But it is a hard kind of season to describe because it doesn’t easily fall into the kind of buckets that I think society sometimes just, you know, conveniently lays before us.
Case Thorp
Well, and I’ve been convicted. I notice how we in the church are really good with new baby births, baptism, where they’re at confirmation and weddings. But we don’t really recognize when folks transition from those income years to the post-income years. And wouldn’t it be neat if in our liturgy we did such a thing? I try to be mindful when I know of somebody retiring to send them a note and mark it in some way. What brought you to see the need for more conversation on this?
David Kim
Yeah, that’s a great question because I certainly wasn’t looking for it. And this was not something that was on my radar. It actually came from a program that we run. It’s kind of our most intensive program. That’s a seven month program called Nautilus. And last year for that particular cohort, we had about 24 folks in that. And I’d say about six of them were over the age of, let’s say, 65. And a good number of them were kind of near or at that kind of, you know, quote unquote, retirement season. And that was the first time we had those numbers. I think just in the providence of God, we were able to kind of have that demographic. And what I saw at the end of that kind of seven month kind of journey, we end with this idea of thinking about the next 10 years. And it’s less about strategic planning and more just just seeing how the program begins to open your spiritual imagination on what’s possible.
And as these people in that kind of third-third demographic were sharing it, they were all very much saying the same thing of just like how their lives just began to open up in ways that were unexpected, that were unexpected. And they began to see that the phrase that we sometimes hear that, their best lives or best years, I should say, are still ahead of them. And I think it was such a great relief to kind of push back against the convention of this season and to be able to hear this sense that God is still calling you. And out of that, they began this initiative called Still Called because they realized that this is not just a season where you’re just kind of beginning to take a step back from life and work, but perhaps when you begin to open your ears as they had during the seven month journey, what becomes clear is that your calling in some ways becomes all the more pertinent during these years than when you’re so busy in the midst of kind of the jobs that they were doing. So I think they were all jazzed up about that. And then it clicked for me that, you know, with work and where we are with work in our world, the fact that we don’t have, you know, some of them called that demographic elders, you know, that our society lacks those elders in every profession. You know, we kind of are experiencing a real profound dissatisfaction with work. And I think in large part because there is no way of really drawing the wisdom from people who’ve been in these respective industries for decades, bringing that wisdom to bear as these fields are all undergoing some some seismic shifts as well as some significant disruption.
Case Thorp
Yeah, well, and I’ve heard from a friend of mine who runs an engineering firm and he said, since the pandemic, I’m sorry, but I can’t have my younger engineers working from home. I need them going to lunch and stopping over in someone’s office who’s done this for 10, 20, 30 years and gleaning that wisdom.
David Kim
That’s right. Yeah, that generational wisdom is, I think we don’t often think about the importance of that, not just from a tact, like a technical or tactical perspective, but just the life stuff that like just being able to hear someone who’s been around the block a few times. I think we downplay the significance of how that plays into not just workplace satisfaction, but the transferring of skills and wisdom.
Case Thorp
Yeah. And family stories like it’s, I’ve always been sad that my kids’ grandparents, my parents are in Atlanta and the others in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. And they’ve missed out, my kids, on gleaning from their grandparents as much or more as they possibly could if we were close. I had that as a kid. And I’ve even noticed more and more advertisements for specialty books that you can have Boomers fill out that write down their favorite childhood memory and the name of their dogs over the years and where they lived and these tools to try to, I don’t want to say necessarily artificially, but transfer that wisdom recognizing we live all over the place and it’s not happening naturally.
David Kim
That’s right.
Case Thorp
And one of the benefits of the church, we’re a traditional church in many ways, but where we celebrate, we have multiple generations we’re worshiping together. It’s not just all one age group or the next. So do you find differences amongst people approaching or going into retirement per industry or even men and women or income level?
David Kim
That’s right. Well, I think what I was hearing is for those who are kind of retired, they were just sharing how they were surprised by people, their peers that were so active in their work, working years, you know, how quickly they kind of transitioned into this kind of more sedentary lifestyle. And they could kind of see in some ways that, you know, you have a couple of years of that there, there’s just, there can be a pretty quick demise. And that’s a pretty strong term, but it was that sense of why all of a sudden are we kind of like, just accepting this, we’re going to be wallflowers while the rest of our world continues to struggle with these issues that perhaps we might have some things to say and I think that from a at least from a gender perspective was pretty similar. I wasn’t seeing that one way or the other but there was kind of a kind of clear sense among all the retirees that they wanted to contribute back. I guess certain industries have some automatic mechanisms to do that and others don’t. For example, you know, we have that term emeritus in the church and in the university. And I looked up that word as I was really just, you know, trying to understand that concept. And so I looked it up. It was this idea that it’s an honorific title that recognizes your contributions to a particular industry or company and it reflects an ongoing relationship and I just thought it was a beautiful way of really honoring kind of the work that someone has done. And I was wondering, why don’t we have that for all industries, right? And why is it just that in certain industries? And so, part of another idea that we were trying to form is this idea of the emeritus project where, how could we begin in the same ways in the beginning of life? You know cities are really recognizing the importance of the three year olds and four years, all the pre-preschool kind of things and the profound impact that makes on the development of a child.
And on the other side of it, I was realizing, yeah, the exit out of work, I think is equally as important for the life of our society. So, you know, on the early stage, it’s benefiting the individual. But, you know, on the exit aspect of that is the benefit really is lost to the society and to the industry. And so how do we begin to create mechanisms across all different kinds of workplaces that allow for that ongoing relationship so that that, you know, that wisdom transfer can happen and that emeritus title can be applied to a lot more people than just in certain kinds of professions.
Case Thorp
I’ve seen something similar in my wife’s firm where folks will take on senior status. And even in the world of judges, the federal judges will take senior status, which means they can cut down hours, maybe keep an office, or even if they’ve moved on from the building, so to say, they’re around for the big fellowships, big events, and they’re always on call if needed for wisdom. There was a church actually in our presbyteryvthat was moving from one denomination to the other. And you know, that can be a hard, arduous process. And the church had been trying to work it out and nice and tense, but being agreeable, well, the Presbytery decided to strip the ordination of their pastor emeritus. And that was it. The congregation was like, okay, we’re done, and they physically one Sunday left the door keys on the communion table and walked out the back. But that, you can mess with us, but you touch the old guy who’s been here for 50 years that we love so much. We’re not putting up with that. Well, I asked about the men and women difference just because I’ve noticed men particularly, because I think we’re weaker. I think we put too much identity in our jobs, perhaps, not that women are immune from that, but men particularly when they retire just have this season of irrelevance or feeling of irrelevance. And it takes a while it seems for them to find a new rhythm. What kind of pastoral word would you have to say to somebody who may be in that season of feeling irrelevant right now?
David Kim
Yeah, I mean, when you phrase it that way, I think that that is something I do see. I guess just like a lot of times it’s a bit like exercising. If you have the muscles there, then the relational connection that’s existing allows you to transition and have that relational web kind of bring you perhaps into some new social fields that engages your work. But I think in like you said, I think when a lot of men don’t have that kind of relational connectivity, it just makes that isolation all those like it feels you’re you’re a lot more alone.
And, I would say to that, like, how do you begin to very proactively put yourself in places where some of that relational connection can develop? Because I think it’s in the new experiences, new communities, new people that our brains kind of stay connected. And that sense of calling not only remains, but actually grows because you begin to realize in this season of life, I have something very unique to give. And when that uniqueness connects with particular communities or people or groups, that’s when I think we begin to see just a liveliness in that season of life. So like how do you begin to put yourself in places where you’re going to rub shoulders with people and to resist the urge of like I just want to be comfortable in this last season of life and comfort is important but what’s going to be more important in terms of this quality of life is our sense of connection with others and the meaningfulness of what we can bring into the communities that we’re a part of.
Case Thorp
My parents are 78 and it was during the pandemic I went to see them in their home in Atlanta and was very concerned because they had physically declined so much, and of course the pandemic made everybody’s world smaller and so my sister and I said all right it’s time to look at an alternative from your home situation. So they moved into a beautiful, wonderful, independent living community, had their own apartment. And I worried about that transition. But you know, my dad jumped into action in terms of getting engaged and getting to know people. He came up to the apartment one day and told my mom, they have asked me to be Santa Claus at Christmas. And that isn’t that nice to help welcome me.
And my mom said, Chuck, I don’t think they’re looking to pull you in. I think they’re looking for the right size individual to fill the suit. But that was just a first step. And now he leads their little Sunday school every single Sunday, which is basically worship and has his routine of bridge and all these different things. He’s got a quartet going. But the church can do so much to offer a relationship and engagement in that.
David Kim
Fantastic. Wow.
Yeah, absolutely. I think that churches have a hard time figuring that piece out. And I think there’s this unlocked wealth that’s, I think, present in a lot of churches. If we can be very thoughtful about just listening to how we bring that connection in, because I think a lot of the focus is on the younger folks, especially people, young kids. And that’s a very needy season of life. But I think, you know, being able to match the experience and the time that they can have in that later season of life with other needs of the church, I think, is a bit of a skill. And I think that’s one that churches often don’t take the time to develop. But if they do, it really unlocks a relational dynamic. I think that is really latent.
Case Thorp
I don’t know who said this to me. Along the way, I heard the notion that mentorship works up. Mentorship works up. That sometimes churches have tried to set up mentoring programs and they don’t succeed so well because it feels a little artificial. As opposed to, I say to young people, young adults, hey, if you want a mentor, go seek them out. It’s kind of awkward for an older person to say, hello, young person, let me mentor you. But I said, if you ask somebody to coffee or lunch, they’re never going to say no.
David Kim
That’s right. It certainly encourages that. I think also the, even that term, I found that some people really don’t like that term mentor because it puts some pressure, you know, like it assumes.. . And I think, you know, in every season of life, we’re always a student. And so there are things I think the younger generation can certainly teach older generations. And I think it’s always a two-way street. And so I think I’ve tried over these years, I’ve kind of shied away from that concept of a mentor, at least as it pertains to kind of this older demographic, because I think in many ways it’s like can we just walk together? You know and it is, it will certainly be a transfer of wisdom because they have a couple more decades ahead of them, but at the same time I think that kind of walking side by side just puts the pressure off and you people can be themselves and just engage in a very authentic way.
Case Thorp
Is there a better term, or just friend?
David Kim
I think companions, I mean, I think you’re just kind of companioning. And sometimes I use that word spiritual companion, if it’s kind of in the context of the church work, what’s really bonding this, you know, this group is just, it’s God’s spirit, you know, and utilizing kind of the differences in order to help us understand, you know, the wisdom that, yeah, years can bring as well as, there’s wisdom in the younger years as well that I think older folks, we can forget, we can forget.
Case Thorp
Yeah, yeah. Well, the Gotham Fellowship binds you and me in so many ways. I’ve learned how to do it from you and one of the things that happens every year as a cohort comes together is the 55 and ups go, you know, I don’t know, these young adults don’t want me around. And then the young adults say, my goodness, like, I don’t know how to relate to an older person. And then by the end of the year, they’re absolutely in love with each other and they will just share how much they learned from each other. To me, that’s one of the strengths of the program.
David Kim
That’s right. Yeah, I think people just need spaces where you are interacting with people you typically would not, you know, and in programs like Gotham, allow for that, you know, that kind of very intentional community. And with a little bit of structure, you realize people are people and whatever stage of life they’re in. And so that connection is beautiful.
Case Thorp
Yeah. Any examples that you might know of where not just particularly churches but different communities, maybe work environments that have created those kind of spaces in a good and healthy way?
David Kim
I’ve been working with one particular gentleman who has recently retired. And in some of the conversations we’ve had around that kind of exit, I think, it really started off there. His company didn’t really have any kind of formal process for that. And he had been working in that company for a good number of years. So I think just having just an honest conversation around that to say, how might, you know, he begin to set up a process of sorts, if there’s not one existing already, how might he be in some ways a prototype of that kind of staying connected, but without formal responsibilities or a paycheck. So I think it’s been fun to kind of walk alongside folks to help them navigate, almost like a salary negotiation, but it’s on the opposite end, like exiting saying, Hey, like, can we, you know, is there a way we could create a win-win situation here? And in being creative and beginning to open up, you know, possibilities that might really benefit the company as well as the person retiring in. I think what they kind of settled on is like a once kind of a frequent gathering where you would come back and be able to kind of engage with employees and just kind of hear what’s going on and be able to pass on a little bit of wisdom. And I think what’s beautiful about that from the employee perspective, you know, there’s no strings attached. This guy doesn’t work at the company anymore. He knows the work. He knows the industry. But in some ways, there’s no politics. It’s just kind of passing on like, you know, the wisdom to really support the individual and the company. So it just seemed like this was a win-win situation that allows this gentleman to stay connected and his mind engaged in work that has been meaningful for him for decades and really to support, you know, younger employees as well.
Case Thorp
Yes, you said no politics, but yet some individuals have a hard time letting go of being a decision-maker. I know particularly in pastoral transition, some denominations say you have to stay away for a year. Sometimes it does get ugly and difficult. I would imagine if one is not already at a spiritually mature place upon retirement, that might be really hard or something they need to learn. Have you seen that lesson worked into any curriculum or exercised in any one of your programs?
David Kim
Well, I mean, I think that’s a great point you’re bringing up. I think you’re intuiting it’s this is just kind of a spiritual maturity issue, right? It’s an awareness of your own self, an awareness of kind of your own heart. And certainly this program Nautilus, you know, we spend seven months and really focus on how do you grow in an awareness, a perception of what God is doing, kind of taking the focus off of yourself and more towards you know, what God is actively doing in our world. And so, you know, so much of our own insecurities and the grudges we hold from work, you know, it revolves around our own sense of being overlooked or underappreciated or….
And I think when you realize, like, hey, you got the favor and the intention of the creator of the universe who loves you in a way that you could never imagine when that kind of settles in and heal some of those wounds, it allows you to really engage others with that posture of really wanting to serve them and love them as well.
Case Thorp
Right. Well, clearly I’m not yet to retirement, but I started here at this church 20 years ago as the mission pastor. And as my role in service to the church has evolved, I handed over the mission department to another pastor, younger than I am and other staff there, and they have done a wonderful job.
But I have found at times I’ve had to catch myself when a change happens or a particular dynamic is not emphasized and bite my lip and say, you know what? It’s okay. And I’ve not always been perfect at it before either. But it can be hard to let something evolve and change beyond your own fingerprint.
David Kim
Yeah, I think those heart dynamics are hard, especially if you’ve been wounded. I mean, it sounds like, you know, I love that your self-awareness there and just and I’m grateful that, you know, you don’t have these gaping wounds where that, you know, that situation is just triggering you in ways that would lead to very unhealthy responses. And I do think, you know, the workplace is so helpful in seeing, you know, where are the wounds that the Lord is trying to heal and bring some measure of real freedom because these things kind of take a hold of us.
Case Thorp
Well, I know an idol of mine can be pride. And so when I see it raise its ugly head, okay, okay, so let’s stop this now. Let’s remember who and whose we are and let the Lord redeem this and not act on that. So I can imagine the spiritual formation practices either for preparation for retirement or even into that third-third. Do you think of any different or nuanced sort of spiritual formation practices unique to that stage?
David Kim
Well, I think in a lot of ways it’s, you know, spiritual formation is just like physical formation. Like if you stop exercising your muscles, muscles atrophy, no matter how strong you once were when you were, you know, in your 30s or 20s. That atrophy is pretty quick. And I think the key is really kind of how do you exercise that, you know, these kind of what we call spiritual competencies in the season of transition, because that’s when your spirit has to be really healthy and strong because you’re going to be, you know, having a lot of those moments where you’re in doubt, where you’re in fear, where you’re insecure and you feel overlooked or underappreciated. And if those spiritual muscles have not been built up, we’re going to succumb to our own voice instead of really hearing the voice of the one who loves us and able to kind of carry us through those insecurities to a place of security.
Case Thorp
So good. And you’re right, the spiritual formation practices are consistent in terms of inviting one into the presence of the Lord, and he is the same yesterday, today, and forever. So say someone’s listening that’s 10 years out from retirement. What would you suggest they begin cultivating now to get ready for that phase?
David Kim
Yeah. Well, I think to really build up that spiritual muscle that our calling is always dynamic. It’s not like an answer to a question. It’s a dynamic relationship so that, you know, if that relationship gets built up in any season of life, when we transition, we’re still in that habit of realizing, hey, my circumstances have changed, but my calling is still very much active. And in some ways, it’s active in a way that you’re freed up because you don’t have the nine to five anymore. You don’t have to clock in and clock out or you don’t have the typical kind of work calendar. And so you’re in this amazing season, hopefully, where you’re situated to be able to have time.
And now that voice becomes even louder because you don’t have the distractions of the kind of work that often takes us away from being able to hear more clearly God’s direction in our lives. So, you know, I’d say at any season in life, you know, when you’re looking into that future, do you have that kind of dynamic relationship with God that we often think, okay, that’s only for certain kinds of people. But I think that is the call that in the church we should be presenting to everyone to say, God, the whole purpose of the gospel is so that we would be reconciled to God. And that reconciliation is not like it’s not an estranged relationship, which a lot of people, I think, functionally have with God, where they acknowledge God, but they’re not really interacting with God in a consistent daily way. And like any healthy relationship, any healthy love relationship, you know, is that dynamic? Is that a two way street where you are both speaking and listening?
And so when that posture of listening becomes cultivated, we get a lot of people that are so surprised when they actually hear something and those questions of, am I hearing God? Am I hearing myself? And that’s part of what spiritual formation is about. Like, how do you discern when God is speaking to you versus your own, you know, something that you’re kind of saying to yourself or just reiterating something you’ve heard from someone else?
Case Thorp
Okay, so last question. How do you see your research being shared with others? A book, workbook, more of a curriculum experience?
David Kim
Yeah, so right now the output is going to be in the form of kind of a curriculum and we’re trying to adapt to what we found is as we presented this to different people, what we have consistently found is churches are very hungry for this kind of material because they have, you know, a gentleman we talked to with leading a church out in California share just that demographic is leaving the church and they’re saying you guys don’t have any programs for us and and so he’s really from a very like, we have a real need here we need programming that will keep these folks in our church so what we have found is that most churches are in a similar place and so that has shaped us to think about curriculum that could be easily embedded into a church context but a curriculum with a view towards like really not just once the eight weeks are over, it’s back to status quo, but really as an on-ramp into really cultivating a whole new vision for that demographic.
Case Thorp
That’s great. Well, when you have it done, let me know. I’d love to see about employing that here at First Pres. David, thank you. I really appreciate your time.
David Kim
Excellent. My pleasure. Thank you, Case.
Case Thorp
Well, friends, next week we’re going to continue this conversation and David’s also got a big interest and done a lot of work in technology and faith, particularly with AI. So to learn more about him and his ministry, you can go to goldenwoodnyc.org. I’ve got that right, right David? goldenwoodnyc.org. Any other sites or places to learn more?
David Kim
That’s right. That will be the primary one.
Case Thorp
Okay, we’ll put that in our show notes. Thank you for inviting us into your day. If any of this conversation has clarified or encouraged your thinking, share it with a colleague, with a family member. You can also leave a review and it truly helps us. Go to wecolabor.com, wecolabor.com, drop us your email and we’ll send you Zeitgeist, our latest journal on faith, work, and culture. Many thanks to the Stein Foundation for supporting today’s episode. I’m Case Thorp, and God’s blessings on you.
