Show Notes
You believe faith belongs in the public square, and you’ve tried to be a faithful presence, but you are simply tired. What happens when your neighbors aren’t interested in connecting, or your workplace treats your convictions as a liability?
Facing a culture that is increasingly hostile to faith can be exhausting, tempting many to adopt a posture of grievance or to withdraw into their comfortable homes.
In this episode of Nuance, regular host Case Thorp takes the hot seat as guest host Katie Shook asks the hard questions about faith under pressure. Case gets honest about the real cost of showing up in the public square, sharing a personal story about a neighborhood dispute over backyard chickens that tested his commitment to loving his neighbors. They unpack the difference between engaging culture with grace versus angrily fighting back, the temptation to make faith overly palatable, and why creating new things is a better response than endless critique.
From finding hope in the longevity of institutions to learning how to focus on the micro when national issues feel overwhelming, Case and Katie provide a practical roadmap for staying grounded and kind in an angry world.
Episode Transcript
Katie Shook
Hi friends, my name is Katie Shook and today I’m back to turn the tables on your regular Nuance host, Case Thorp. Last time he and I talked about why faith belongs in the public square and we talked about presence, formation, the long view, and it was a good conversation. And several of you wrote in to say so. A few of you wrote in with a different kind of note and the notes went something like this. So yes, I believe faith belongs in public. I believe in faithful presence. I’ve tried and I am tired. My neighbors are not interested in the conversation. The city I live in does not feel like a parish.
My workplace feels like a place that treats my convictions as a liability. So what do I do now? And that’s the conversation I want to have with Case today. My guest again is Case Thorp, who is my pastor, theologian. He’s the founder of The Collaborative and now apparently my monthly or quarterly, is it quarterly? I think we’re quarterly. Yeah. So Case, welcome back to my podcast now.
Case Thorp
Woohoo! Yeah, we’re shifting to quarterly.
This is fun. Yeah, I had a lot of great feedback from the last time we did it this way. And so, you know, one of our goals this year is to mix up the content. It needs to be more than one voice.
Katie Shook
I love it. I’m excited. What’s new with you, Case? What’s new in your world?
Case Thorp
My goodness. Well, we are filming or recording this quite a bit earlier than it might post, but my son Charles, my heart, leaves this afternoon for eight weeks in Spain. I’m so jealous. Well, he’s doing an FSU program in Valencia, Spain, south of Barcelona. And you did that program?
Katie Shook
Okay. Yeah. I went to Spain a few summers ago. It was great. I love it. I, well, two things. One, yes, I did that program many, many years ago and I went to London, but I did go to Spain for a fun trip like two years ago in the summer and it was great.
Case Thorp
Okay, yeah. When it’s over, he’s gonna take about 10 days and take the train around the Cote d’Azur, the French Riviera, and then see buddies in Florence, fly out from Rome. When this drops, he probably will be home and have had a great experience. Yeah.
Katie Shook
Good for him. That’ll be fun.
Case Thorp
I’m trying to get over there, but it’s so expensive. I can’t figure out how to do it and not break the bank.
Katie Shook
I’m gonna welcome our listeners to Nuance. It’s a podcast that explores what it means to be faithful in the public square as followers of Jesus. And if this episode is worth your time, pass it along to a friend, colleague, a neighbor. A like, a share, and a comment goes a long way. We would appreciate those. So, Case, are you ready to dig in?
Case Thorp
Bring it.
Katie Shook
All right, so last time you described faithful presence as patient embedded and hopeful work. And I want to talk a little bit about the patience part. When you have shown up faithfully in a public space, like a board, a school, a civic conversation, and it’s cost you something, what did the cost actually look like?
Case Thorp
Well, for 14 years, we lived in Colonial Town and never had one issue with neighbors. And we moved just before COVID to our current home and we’ve had a couple of run-in neighbors. I don’t get it, like we didn’t change and I don’t want to blame it on them, but. So during COVID, we got chickens and who knew you needed to check zoning laws? Like what are zoning laws? Why wouldn’t they pertain to chickens?
Katie Shook
Really? Yeah.
Case Thorp
And we’re about 100, well, maybe 300 400 yards from the Orlando city line. So we’re technically in the county and have different rules. Well, the former neighbors on one side of us were very, very upset. And at first it was because they were too loud on their side of the house. And look, I get it. They were right. And we were out of zoning compliance. So we moved them and they still weren’t happy. And so they turned us into zoning. And there’s a $1,000 fine a day, Katie, if you don’t get them off your property. So, I’m panicked. And also, we had been scheduled for a court date to hear about this. Zoning court. And thankfully, I know you may know Ryan and Jamie Smith, they live on the other side of Lake Jennie Jewel from where we are, and offered to foster our chickens while we figured this out.
So we quickly moved them, found out later that as long as you move them within 30 days, the fines and the court date disappear. But my wife Jodi began an effort to get the Orange County zoning laws changed. And we quickly found out online from a couple of Facebook chicken pages, there are such things, that there was great momentum and desire for such.
She reached out to the Orange County Office of Sustainability. They had tried many years ago and failed to allow for backyard chickens and were thrilled to have her help them lead the charge. And so this resulted in a number of meetings with the county and commissioners, even to the county commission. At one point, Orlando Sentinel caught wind of this, took a picture of Jodi on the front page of the paper, all dressed up from work because she didn’t have time to get a picture done, but she stopped in and she’s got chickens on her shoulders and she’s all dressed up. Well, the neighbors found out about it and tried to launch a resistance campaign. If that sounds a little intense, resistance campaign? It’s not like they’re gorillas in the mountains of Columbia or something. But finally it resolved in a hearing at the Orange County Council, Jodi shows up with 28 women in yellow t-shirts with the big black chicken silhouette on the front. And I knew we had the vote when like four of the council members, the commissioners, picked up their phones and took pictures of all these ladies walking in the chamber. So she won. But it was hard, as you can imagine, with the neighbors. And there were some unfortunate texts. Well, I like peace. And so the day before the final hearing, I noticed my neighbor’s garage was open and he was in there working. So I walked over there and peeked my head around the corner and I said, Hey, you know, I just wanted to come over and connect with you before we show up tomorrow. And he was furious, furious and lit into me, verbally accosting me. I did think for a second, it might just get physical, but it didn’t. And he put it point blank: Case, you’re a pastor, right? Where’s this whole “love your neighbor” stuff with your chickens? And we felt just in moving forward with this because their accusations were that they smelled, they don’t. They were drawing rats, they weren’t. And I’m sorry we had that disagreement, but I really took that personally. Because I thought, yikes, how does this desire for backyard chickens compromise our witness? Does it? Is it just and understandable? Well, all the other neighbors around us were fine with it. And sadly, this couple made a big, not morally or etiquette-ly appropriate, if etiquette-ly is a word, at the council meeting, hand gestures towards Mayor Demings and it was ugly. But my point there is, sadly they ended up divorcing and moving out and that was not because of the chicken situation, but I think there was a lot of brokenness and frustration in that home to begin with. So here’s this, we’ve never pursued the Orange County Commission and done such a thing. It was funny actually after Jodi did this, two different people reached out and said, hey, could you lead a campaign? We need a new library branch or we want this to…she declined. But I mean, I was really sad for that engagement or encounter with my neighbor, but I had to think through, is this just, is this righteous? Am I being too ugly, am I pursuing the right paths for resolution here? And it wasn’t always clear. It wasn’t always a straight line. It’s easier, of course, to look at it in hindsight. But yeah.
Katie Shook
Love it. Love the chickens. Love the little, love you guys making moves for the chickens.
Case Thorp
Well, and many folks know I am not a chicken fan, but I am a fan of my wife and she loves the chickens. And we do get amazing fresh eggs every day.
Katie Shook
I mean, I might need some of those at some point.
Case Thorp
Hey, you know what? I thought I need to thank you for being an outstanding hostess, so I’ll bring you some eggs.
Katie Shook
Love it. I buy the expensive ones at Publix. Now I can taste them.
Case Thorp
Well, now you get, I guess they’re technically organic. I don’t know what the definition of that is, but backyard chicken.
Katie Shook
Yeah. Another question. So was there a season when you wondered if presence was the wrong call when maybe withdrawal looked more honest than staying?
Case Thorp
Okay, so by presence you mean faithful presence, that concept where we stand for our faith and don’t back down, but we do it with kindness and gentleness, but yet a firm foundation. So in both of these situations, chickens, denomination, absolutely, I question. And on the denominational issue, as our committee has labored for two years and lots of hours and lots of writing and deciding. Yeah, when I see the pushback and the other opinions, I think, my, did we discern the mind of Christ correctly? Are we reading scripture faithfully? And I don’t know if I trust the General Assembly’s decision to be the mind of Christ, which is the phrase we use particularly in reformed churches. And our recommendations don’t pass. Can I still accept that as the mind of Christ? I hope so. I should. Yeah, but we won’t be leaving the denomination over it as some have threatened to do.
So it’s not always easy.
Katie Shook
Yeah, it takes some discernment, some wisdom, all that good stuff.
Case Thorp
But in and through it all, both situations, by golly, be kind, be loving, be above board, because being tacky and rude is kind of the norm, sadly, today, as set by so many politicians and other famous people. So I really appreciate, there’s been a lot of, as you can imagine, Facebook conversations about this denominational issue in these private chat rooms for pastors.
And I don’t say this to brag, but again and again, I have been affirmed on those pages publicly and in private messages, your consistent kindness, but yet appropriate pushback is very much noted. And so we had a small issue, not a big one, with other neighbors, different ones. I bet the people on the street just think we’re horrible.
And after it resolved, the individual said, you know, I didn’t expect you, because they’re not a big fan of evangelicals, I did not expect you to handle it this way. And that’s really taught me something. So I would encourage folks to be mindful of your attitude and your heart in that. Believe me, there’s times I want to pop back. And I almost posted something online the other day that would have completely undermined the reputation of the person that put something out there. It wasn’t wrong, but it’s true. And I typed it all out and almost hit send. Wait a minute, this is a distraction. This is personal and rude. Don’t do it. And so I didn’t.
Katie Shook
I love that.
Case Thorp
But look, and honestly, I’ve only gotten here after many years of being very inappropriate on Facebook or putting something out there that’s just a little too snarky and a little too, I’ve got an unfortunate gift with words that can be used for evil. So, oh my goodness, it’s such a waste.
Katie Shook
I’m missing so much on Facebook.
A lot of Christians right now describe the public square as actively hostile to faith and some of that’s overstated, some of it’s real. How do you read the moment we’re actually in? How does that feel to you?
Case Thorp
Well, I think the stage and the environment matters. On a local level, I find particularly the city of Orlando leaders very welcoming and grateful for church participation and very glad to have pastors, leaders of faith at the tables in the conversations that matter. Not that all of those same officials or leaders are Christians themselves, but it’s not a hostility.
Now we do see hostility in other places in our country. Hollywood, certain folks of political persuasions and different politicians on that level. I feel like with the Trump administration, the pendulum has swung back a little bit and I don’t mean to praise Trump or their administration in all ways.
I am grateful that some Supreme Court decisions and even legislation has made room or room again for Christians, not necessarily trying to create theocracy or cross the line, but things that represent our values. So it’s going to only continue, however, I think, to get harsher and harsher culturally for Christians to have a place in the space.
And I do see more and more examples where we have crossed the line between Christians being allowed in the room versus seen as hostile actors or seen as a threat. Certainly during the COVID-woke journey, you saw much more of the people of faith are dangerous as opposed to just keep them at arm’s length in a neutral place or go home and do your own religion thing. That’s different than, okay, you are a threat and dangerous. And that worries me.
We’ve got to be out there in the public scroll. And that’s why I push for this and win some faithful presence sort of ways so that it doesn’t turn to that extreme.
Katie Shook
Yeah, so there’s kind of a temptation right now in this moment to take a posture of grievance. The world’s against us, institutions have turned, the only honest response is to fight back. What are your thoughts on that? How do you respond to that?
Case Thorp
Well, even like you said, fight back. What does fighting mean or look like?
I try to swing the pendulum away from what I experienced in the ‘90s growing up, where the Christian coalition and moral majority mobilized politically. And I do think there’s a place and a space for that. But a lot of times their spokespersons were not gentle and wise and even-keeled in their forward movement.
And so the stereotypes only grew and grew in movies, cultural representations, in the media, et cetera. Now there’s only so much control you can have over that. But I hope for more voices like Tim Keller, who are ones that led with grace and love, but absolutely did not compromise on truth. So, I think that comes down to all of us, when we’re at work, when we’re at school, etc. Go ahead.
Katie Shook
On the other side of that, there’s kind of a temptation to make our faith more palatable and soften it down to something no one would have any objections with. How do you respond to that? How do you feel about that side?
Case Thorp
Well, that’s where the concept of faithful presence, which James Davison Hunter at University of Virginia articulates, comes from. That’s where this idea is so important, that faithful part is truth and clarity of truth, but then the presence part is I’m not going to shrink back and we are going to represent who and what we are and let the chips fall where they may. I do believe that faithful presence that works through appropriate mechanisms for change. For instance, the legislation system or internal corporate changes is important to do. You want to exercise power appropriately, but don’t be afraid to exercise it. Just like, I guess, in the chicken situation, we exercised it appropriately and there have to be communal ways of deciding what to do with chickens and other issues.
And yet knowing it’s still very much upsetting my neighbor. So, presence, I believe, is a concept that is so very helpful. And it doesn’t go to the two extremes of either compromising on truth in order to be accepted or made palatable to others or compromising on showing up.
Reformed theology is very much about being salt and light out in the culture, as opposed to some Christian traditions like the Amish, where you completely remove yourself and go set up an alternate utopia or society. So we lean in and we show up. I also, in that same regard, as opposed to in the ‘90s where it was such a critique kind of environment and a criticism type environment, I like the Andy Crouch encouragement, go create, create new. So that’s why particularly at The Collaborative, we invest in the arts and lift up creators and writers and those who are creating to fill the gap and even draw others into the conversations that are gospel oriented. I mean, you certainly, I think, do that in your own work in the finance industry, create a beautiful way of doing it rather than hiding or sitting back and critiquing others.
Katie Shook
Try to, yeah, try to.
Case Thorp
Yeah. Have you, I mean, have you seen that creation side of things unfold in your life?
Katie Shook
Do you mean like through creating a space for that kind of conversation?
Case Thorp
It could be a space, it could be the way you do your work, it could be in the arts, just not sitting around and being grumpy, but saying, look, we’re gonna do beautiful things as Christians.
Katie Shook
Yeah. It’s kind of the idea of touching grass, getting outside, going and living your life a little bit. Yes, in my work for sure. I think the bigger place in your community, I mean, where you’re living, your neighbors, like, I know all of my neighbors, which is great and have a great relationship. We all this past week, actually, on Friday night, watched the Magic game together.
Case Thorp
That’s huge.
Katie Shook
Yeah, getting outside, creating that community, creating something, creating fruitful places for conversations, for being a faithful presence, that kind of thing. Yeah, for sure.
Case Thorp
I want to challenge listeners and viewers, even though this podcast today. Do you really know your neighbors? Do you know their names? Do you know their kids or their jobs, their situation? And look, it doesn’t mean you have to be buddy-buddy with everybody, but that tendency in our society to just pull back in our comfortable, air-conditioned Netflixed homes, it doesn’t give opportunity for gospel conversation and living life together and solving the little stuff like chickens before it gets to the county commission.
And I’m sad to say, these folks, we did not have a relationship with them. We had moved in and met them on move-in day, and that’s it. Some of that’s on us. Like, we go over and say, hey, let’s hang out on the porch, or let’s have dinner together. But now, we have certainly done that, and others have been very receptive. We love our neighbors, even when we’ve had hiccups. But we didn’t know these folks, and that made it harder.
Katie Shook
Yeah. And that’s not to say I know all my neighbors, but I do know a lot of them, which is really fun. So yeah, I would say creating is a great encouragement, a great word of encouragement.
Case Thorp
Is there a block party on your street? And if not, do you need to be the ones to make it happen?
Katie Shook
There is one on ours. We do one every Halloween and New Year’s Eve. It’s really fun. Yeah, my neighbors are great.
Case Thorp
Okay, yeah. Our, so we’re on a cul-de-sac with 24 houses, 12 on one side, 12 on the other. And our house prior to us living there was, we’re right in the middle, and our driveway and the next driveway are close to one another. So you have a big open area that’s great for putting out tables and food. And twice we’ve continued the tradition of a neighborhood potluck. But, we’ve gotten lazy and we haven’t done it in a number of years and we need to, we need to. We’ve had a little excitement going on in our family last year, but I want to do that just to keep everybody connecting. So this is strange, Katie. And I know this is unique to me being a pastor, but this is not solely because I’m a pastor, but I’ve kind of turned into the chaplain of the street. So even folks that I’ve only met once or twice, they’ll reach out when there’s a hospital visit that needs or a medical issue that’s going on. And, you know, I didn’t ask for it, but I’m glad to show up in that way. When there’s an ambulance that shows up on our street, which is not infrequent, I’ll walk down just to check on things as best I can. So anybody can do that. Any Christian can become that one who shows I really care.
Even if we’re not living life day in and day out together. So, during COVID, we hosted an, was it Easter? Yeah, we hosted Easter in our front yard because the church was closed and we had done Easter online and recorded it beforehand. So we weren’t occupied literally on Sunday morning. So we did a thing in the front yard and people poured out. I was surprised at how many people poured out and it was fun.
Katie Shook
Yeah, I love that. So shifting just a little bit in our conversation. What about people you can’t reach? So the neighbor who’s not willing to have a conversation with you or the colleague who’s made up their mind about who you are, or maybe a family member who’s kind of, you know, maybe written you off or whatever. Is faithful presence still the answer or is there something else you should think about in those situations?
Case Thorp
Well this is where discernment comes in. I’ve gotten much bigger in the last 10 years of my ministry on wisdom, wisdom, wisdom, discernment. Don’t just be filled with all the right answers, but you’ve got to exercise such things. So I try to be sensitive to the degree to which somebody is willing to go there in conversation or to have gospel centered conversations. And one technique I find helpful is to shift the conversation away from the Magic, which is a wonderful way to start, but into the bigger questions of life, like what do you hope to accomplish in life and what are your dreams? I’ve got one neighbor and they are a delightful young couple with two little boys and another child on the way. And they’ve been attending worship with us over now through our relationship, but we got to know each other pretty well and I put my Christmas gifts in their garage so the kids don’t find them, so the Santa Claus gifts. And he was helping me assemble a go-kart one time and I said, you know, what do you hope for your boys in life? And it was kind of the more serious kind of question. It was moving in a different direction.
And he sort of kind of chuckled and said, I don’t know, just for them to be happy. I was like, and there was a bit of silence. And then he said, but you know, I really do want for them, and I don’t remember, frankly, what it was, but I opened up the space for an intimate, vulnerable expression and conversation, and he took it. And we’ve since just been able to drive ever more deeply. He’s in my small group.
I love Stephen, he’s the best. Now, other people though, they don’t want to go there. And so do I have the discernment and the wisdom not to be a pain and push, but to be patient, as you said, and to know I don’t save people. The salvation in their life, should it come, is not on my timetable to force and make happen. God does the saving and He will in His good time, should He so desire.
Katie Shook
I love that, yeah.
Case Thorp
But am I being sensitive and is it truly loving to force these things? People shut down.
I also think it’s part of growing old, maybe you realize there are just some people that will never like you. And that’s okay.
Katie Shook
It’s okay. The older you get, the easier that is to accept.
Case Thorp
Well, and I’ve learned in the church, yes, there are some people that don’t just think Case Thorp is the best pastor in the world. And thankfully we’re in a big enough church where it’s not an issue. I’ve got a lot of peers in smaller contexts where it really is a common moment for conflict, but that’s okay.
Brush, as Jesus said, brush off your feet and go to where you find the people of peace that are receptive.
But amidst it all, people are watching. And so be kind, be patient, be loving, because one little hiccup is enough for them to go, mm-hmm, I knew it.
Katie Shook
So, Case, you believe that institutions matter. You love and have built The Collaborative. You are at First Presbyterian Church. You work with the EPC denomination. Why are those so important right now? And why do you think we’ve lost confidence? A lot of people have lost confidence in institutions.
Case Thorp
Well, first off, I think they’re important because they extend beyond one’s term of service. They extend beyond the generations. When the Lord brings me home, I will have a slew of sermons, hopefully some books, and a lot of podcasts out there. Hopefully I will have, more importantly, fruit in people’s lives, their growth in Christ.
But yet it comes to an end and that’s been great and that’s okay. But First Presbyterian Church is going to as it has, we just celebrated our 150th, right? And institutions get passed on to future leaders to steward those institutions. And so that stability brings stability to society. Even when a leader comes and goes in the American context, it’s the institutions that will continue to bring that stability. So I’m a strong believer in them. I don’t think we, I’ve been on a learning curve, especially when I first began to think through this. And you’ve done Gotham with me and we talk about this a lot, but not really appreciating, wow, an institution is a structure of human relationships that has vision, purpose, product it either produces, whether that’s in education or the marketplace. So, now, why the breakdown? Why the suspicion? Well, I think for a couple reasons. One, we’ve had a lot of screw-ups. And a lot of individuals that abuse those institutions take advantage of them for their own gain, twist those institutions to manipulate and exploit other people, for sure. Now, that’s always been the case throughout human time history, because we’re fallen people, we’re broken. Maybe the argument could be made that today we actually, because of more accountability, we have more healthy and good institutions than the ones back in the Roman Empire, which might have been more in the dark and more free to be corrupt. So I also think people have pulled back today because there’s more wealth in society. Wealth breeds privacy and pulling back. We have homes with air conditioning and Netflix. You can serve yourself and be less bidden to the institutions that support and make for a full life. Western society promotes radical individualism as opposed to the communal nature of Asian societies. So that it’s being played out on a grand scale right now.
Katie Shook
You’ve watched a lot of institutions fail. You’ve watched them calcify. And so what’s the difference between an institution that’s worth building and investing in and then one that maybe should be allowed to kind of go its own way, maybe wither a little bit?
Case Thorp
Well, people, people, leadership, leadership, leadership. When you pass that institution, those institutional reins onto the next generation or the next set of leaders, it rises and falls on their capacity and capability, their flexibility with the times. David Swanson, our pastor, will often say the church is one generation away from extinction. I would love to have some of those founding members of First Pres show up today and see what’s going on. And I would love to hear their shock, their awe, their reaction, but also maybe their revulsion on some things, right? We might have some practices today that they can’t even comprehend or within the realm of church Christian possibility. I think the second piece is their purpose and their mission.
So some institutions have run their course. I was listening to a podcast with Newt Gingrich, and wherever you may fall on the political spectrum, he has a great podcast. Some of it’s about politics, but a lot of it are just these amazing culture makers and experts and just all sorts of great topics. Anyway, he talked about how the ice industry in the early 1900s was enormous, hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars of capital and jobs it provided and that three times a day ice was delivered to every congressman’s office and the way in which the whole network and structure allowed for that thing to happen and that then there came refrigeration and freezers and the overlap was about 20 years where congressmen had refrigerators in their office and yet that bucket of ice showed up three times a day.
Right? So I think some institutions, when they’ve lost their purpose and their call, yeah, it’s okay to shut them down. Someone once said that it’s not bad to close a ministry, it’s bad to close it without celebration and acknowledgement of its fruit. And that, I think, is why people get upset when decisions are made and ministries are closed and there’s no liturgy, no moment to pause, celebrate, then the thing applies to institutions. I got to be a part of the founding of iDignity. You’re familiar with iDignity. It’s a, for those not in Orlando, it’s a great ministry, non-profit, helps the poor and the vulnerable get the identification needed to succeed in society. So birth certificates, state ID, Social Security cards, these things are essential to get a bank account and apartment and all that. And I was there in the earliest of days. I have stayed connected over the years, but I’m not on the board anymore and I don’t actively engage in its building. But I show up for big events and they’re building a new building, they’re constructing a new building just south of the church. And I can’t tell you how amazing it is to have been a part of it in the early days and to see where it is today. And to also recognize our founding director, Michael Dippy, is still leading, but one day he will retire or get hit by a bus. And there is enough now history and product fruitfulness, tens of thousands of people have gotten their IDs, that it will continue. And donors will continue because the mission and the purpose are big enough and important enough.
Others have been brought in that get it and want to see it still happen. So we can’t be afraid though to shut things down when needed. Good leaders know that and will do that. And I think even if you’re not the leader making that decision, if you’re a cheerleader, if you’re on the periphery, be okay and give space for those leaders to do what’s necessary sometimes.
Katie Shook
As we start to wind down a little bit, want to talk about encouraging people who may be tired. That they believe that this is all important, but are a little bit worn out and exhausted by it. And I think that’s different for everyone. Some people have a personality for this more, so like Case. Some of us are probably in the middle, like me, where I get tired by it sometimes and energized at other times, it depends on the day. What do you, what word of advice, what would you say to them that’s honest and not your church answer? Like what’s your real word of encouragement?
Case Thorp
Because my church answer is not honest, is that what you’re suggesting?
Katie Shook
No, I don’t want to give them the patience or… I want to give them real encouragement.
Case Thorp
No, right, right, right. Yeah. I mean, God gives us Sabbath for a reason, and it’s okay to check out, to disengage. I’m a news junkie, and yet sometimes I just need to turn it off, and it might be a week of I’m gonna not engage in any headlines.
So not to feel bad about that, but we cannot lose hope in all things that Christ will redeem and cause us to be a part of that. And I don’t just mean lose hope in His return or the ultimate renewal of all creation in our own souls. I mean, don’t lose hope that the institutions you’re a part of can be better. I am a very strong advocate for school choice.
And we are watching the public schools around us go through some very difficult reorientation. As now with funding shifts, Orange County school system is laying off hundreds of people and they’ve shut down, I think, 10 to 15, 20 schools because for the first time there are more students in alternative learning environments than public schools. I’m not an anti-public school person. I know there’s a place for such institutions.
But I also know there has to be some hard reform and seasons of struggle here. And so I can’t lose hope that these places will be so led and encouraged, yes, by good people, but especially for the Christ follower, especially for the one who Jesus calls to be a part of Reinstitutional Renewal. I hope that wasn’t the pastor answer, but…
Katie Shook
No, it’s not. I’m going to give something that’s a little practical too, because I’ve thought about this actually a decent amount. I think when you get overwhelmed, at least for me, it’s helpful to think small. So think of my neighbors and think of the small things that I can do. Because usually when I get overwhelmed, it’s related to something that feels too big.
National headlines all that stuff always feels really big and like I don’t know what to do to make it better. So I’ve tried to remind myself to go small and think of those immediately around me whether that’s your family, your neighbors, your friends, something small.
Case Thorp
Yeah. Focus on the micro and let go of the macro. I can’t solve homelessness, but there’s a homeless guy that might need some help.
Katie Shook
Yeah, the people you see in your day-to-day life. So yeah, anyways, that’s my, that’s always my like, okay, do a little thing.
Case Thorp
Yeah. Well, I can’t get people on different political sides to get along, but I can go reach out to someone I know that doesn’t stand where I stand and give them a banana cream pie.
Katie Shook
You and I are going to have to have a conversation, yes, about school choice too, because as a product of the public schools, I may fall on the other side, but I want to hear your side of this.
Case Thorp
Look, I went to public middle and high school and my children have gone through Boone, which is a great public high school. So yeah, I’d love talking about it.
Katie Shook
We’ll have a conversation offline about that.
Case Thorp
Or no, let’s do a whole episode on it.
Katie Shook
Okay, I’m gonna have to do some prep work because I know you’re way more prepared. I don’t have kids, but I would love to talk about that. Yeah.
Case Thorp
Yeah, both of us.
Well, I am friends with two different members of the current Orange County School Board. And then I’ve interviewed before Kevin Clark, who is the leader of the Ecclesial School and of course a big advocate for school choice. Anyway, there’s a lot of voices out there and maybe that would be fun to get us all on.
Katie Shook
Yeah, I’d love to hear more about because I think I always think of the common good. There are people who with this, these choices sometimes are being affected who can’t make choices for themselves. But that’s another story for another day and we’ll have that conversation. So you have been at First Pres for 21 years and you have stayed for 21 years. What has staying taught you that leaving could not teach you?
Case Thorp
The generational handover. Because when I got here, we still had the greatest generation folks in critical mass as well as in leadership. Well, that generation pretty much is transitioned to glory. And now the boomers are the retired set. And here, you know, I’m a Gen Xer and we now are in more millennials running things. So I look back over all the funerals I’ve done and all the spiritual redwoods of our church that have passed, and it’s a different place. First prayers, and it’s still not. Those values carry over generation to generation, and we’ve still got the same buildings from then, but it’s a different makeup of people.
So what is that? I mean, I wouldn’t have experienced that or known that. I guess what it’s taught me as I age is that you do get to a phase of recognizing or giving room for the new leaders to come and take over and not to be that burdensome, well, we used to do it this way and you have to do it that way. But also on the other side of that coin to step in when necessary and remind of greater purpose and values, even though we may shift methodology. I’ve seen the, I can tell you, a person who is in their 70s, 80s, 90s who does that really well and is very mature as opposed to hearkening back to glory days, Buz Ausley.
Katie Shook
I was, that’s the exact person I thought of and I was gonna say that name. I love Buz Ausley, he’s amazing.
Case Thorp
Yes. He’s on our session and this is mid to late 80s and when he speaks we listen. But he also is so generous knowing that church today looks very different than when he was raising kids.
Katie Shook
Yeah. He’s so inclusive with the young, much younger generations too. Like he’s just always got such a great word of wisdom and seeks me out. Yeah. He’s just wonderful. I love him. He’s a great guy.
Case Thorp
So as I’ve watched people do that over 21 years, it makes me realize, okay, I’m 49 and I’ll be in their spots at some point, but even now, how can I help observe and encourage that ownership?
Katie Shook
Yeah. So last question I want to ask you, what scares you about this work and what gives you pause and makes you stop and think a little bit?
Case Thorp
Not enough Christians or church leaders taking seriously evangelism, our place in culture, our desire to create it and to lean into it. It’s real easy and way more comfortable to turn inward and create our little kingdoms. And so that’s why I hope this work continues to touch and encourage people, especially as society gets perhaps harsher and more hostile to Christians. Usually periods of persecution lead the church to grow, which is encouraging, but in the interim, however the hostility may go quickly or slowly, we cannot give up on being out there and seeing our witness unfold even at our workplaces and our soccer leagues.
And it doesn’t have to be leading Disney or being a city council member, but we’ve got to continue to represent Jesus there.
Katie Shook
I agree, yeah, be in the world and not of it.
Case Thorp
But be in it. That’s right. That’s right.
Katie Shook
You got to really be in it. You got to be intentional to be in it. have to be really intentional. Case, thank you. This was really great. And for anyone listening, if part one of this conversation was about why, this one was about the how and at what cost, and they both belong together. We will keep links to Case’s writing and the work of The Collaborative in the show notes.
Case Thor
Well thank you. It’s very generous of you.
Katie Shook
If part of this conversation named something you’ve been carrying, we’d love to hear from you. Drop your email with us at wecolabor.com. And then we’ll send you Zeitgeist, our journal on faith, work and culture. And I’m going to do something that you would, I think, appreciate, Case, make a plug. If you’re in Orlando and interested in the Gotham Fellowship as someone who’s graduated from it, this is the kind of stuff we talk about. So you should consider it. You should consider it.
Case Thorp
Yes. Yeah. Well, if you want to meet one of our Orlando Fellows or our Arts Fellowship folks, lots going on.
Katie Shook
Lots going on. It’s true. My thanks again to Pratt Family Fund for supporting today’s episode. And I’m Katie Shook along with Case Thorp. God’s blessings on you.
