Show Notes
Why do so many church services feel disconnected from the messy reality of the workweek and demand a forced positivity that leaves no room for honest lament?
Public theologian Rev. Dr. Matthew Kaemingk and ministry consultant Katie Roelofs return to the Nuance podcast with host Case Thorp to dive into the practical application of their book, Leading Worship for Workers. They discuss how pastors and worship leaders can deepen existing practices rather than overwhelming themselves with new ones. They also explore how viewing worship as an active dialogue can transform a congregation’s discipleship.
Whether you are a ministry leader planning the Sunday liturgy or a professional sitting in the pews, this conversation offers practical wisdom for turning weekly worship into a dynamic, honest dialogue that honors the real work of your hands.
Episode Resources:
Leading Worship for Workers: How to Design Liturgies for All of Life by Matthew Kaemingk and Kathryn Roelofs – https://www.amazon.com/dp/1540969843
Work and Worship: Reconnecting Our Labor and Liturgy by Matthew Kaemingk and Cory Willson – https://www.amazon.com/dp/1540961982
Worship for Workers Initiative – worshipforworkers.com
The Porter’s Gate – portersgateworship.com
Nuance is a podcast of The Collaborative where we wrestle together about living our Christian faith in the public square. Nuance invites Christians to pursue the cultural and economic renewal by living out faith through work every facet of public life, including work, political engagement, the arts, philanthropy, and more.
Each episode, Dr. Case Thorp hosts conversations with Christian thinkers and leaders at the forefront of some of today’s most pressing issues around living a public faith.
Episode Transcript
Case Thorp
How can pastors and worship leaders actually lead worship that forms Christians for their work? How can people who are worshiping be mindful of their work as they move through the motions of worship? Well today, friends, we turn to this very practical question. Why was that hymn chosen or that confession or creed? Why do we pray in this way or preach on those topics? What aren’t we doing that might fill out the Christian experience? Well, it can really make a difference in how the church forms and equips people in the rest of their lives for how our worship services function. Well, in our last episode, we explored the theological vision behind a new book entitled Leading Worship for Workers, published by Baker Press. Our guests again today are Matthew Kaemingk and Katie Roelofs, the co-authors of this book, and leaders of the Worship for Workers initiative. Matthew and Katie, thanks for being here on Nuance.
Matthew Kaemingk
Good to be here.
Katie Roelofs
Thanks for having us back.
Case Thorp
Let me welcome you, listeners and viewers, here on Nuance. We explore what it means to be faithful in the public square for Christ. Now, as I mentioned last time, this conversation is in a way first for worship leaders, pastors, music directors, et cetera. But at the same time, I want to keep our conversation accessible for everyone listening. So all Christians participate in worship. And my hope is that by hearing this conversation, it will help us think more thoughtfully about our own worship experience and how our minds and hearts are shaped through that. And even in our devotional lives, you may get some ideas today to pass along to your church leadership. Well, Matt researches the relationship between theology, culture, and public life. He’s recently been appointed professor of public theology at Utrecht Theological University in the Netherlands. Katie is a member in the Reformed Church of America and has spent nearly two decades in worship and music ministry. She previously served a congregation in the DC area and now works as a worship consultant and the managing director of the Worship for Workers Initiative. Okay friends, we did the bigger picture theology last time. You say in the book, the book is designed for pastors and worship leaders who recognize this problem and we know, my goodness, people in ministry are way overwhelmed and have very full plates, for sure. So such resources are incredibly helpful. If a pastor sees the problem we’ve been discussing, and that is the absence of recognizing one’s work and contribution in most of their daily hours spent, if we see the absence of that in our worship experience and the leader is overwhelmed on how to work this in, what do you think would be a first great step, besides buying your book?
Katie Roelofs
We addressed the exhaustion problem actually early on because we recognize that it’s a real one. That worship leaders and pastors, they’re often told you should be doing this, giving people more to do. And so we acknowledge that early on that this isn’t a book that’s going to just give you a whole lot of new things to do or to try. It’s not an expansion of worship. This is deepening practices. We encourage worship leaders and pastors early on in this book to do just a short little self audit of some of the congregational strengths that they have in worship. What are two or three things that your church does really well? The parts of liturgy, the parts of worship that really make somebody’s heart sing. What are those things that you do really well already and how can we find ways to deepen those practices rather than expand?
Case Thorp
And you mean what a church does really well in worship on a Sunday morning. You don’t mean like ministries throughout the week or children’s or…?
Katie Roelofs
Right, talking more specifically about worship. Talk about deepening practices rather than expansion of practices.
Case Thorp
Yeah. Okay.
Matthew Kaemingk
Yeah. So just as an example, like if your church is really great with testimonies and your people know how to do testimonies here, just like let’s deepen that and make those testimonies more work oriented and encouraging people to talk about how God is engaging work. Or if your church is really comfortable praying together and, you know, you have that practice, like, let’s think about continuing to develop and deepen that.
Case Thorp
That’s so much more helpful.
Matthew Kaemingk
So building off of what they know, you know, rather than doing something radically different.
Case Thorp
Yeah, because that not only shakes people maybe too much, but it’s hard to fit in new stuff or new practices. You have politics to fight. You have only so much time. How open will your congregants be to a new thing? Rather than enjoying a thing, they’re thinking, this is new. This is not normal. So deepen what you already do. I like that.
Katie Roelofs
Those are precious 72 minutes to fill. So we’re not trying to rewrite 68 of them. We’re trying to help you look at those 72 and recognize the ways that you can speak to them in a way that honors, challenges, disrupts maybe a little bit and sends workers each week.
Case Thorp
Oh, I wish we did 72 minutes. I say at First Pres Orlando, which is a very structured, timed, explicitly organized service. And we say the spirit moves six weeks to six months ahead of time, right, to get that all in place rather than in the moment. But at 62 minutes, I joke that there is a door that opens up beneath the pulpit and the pastor will fall through the door if you go past 62, right?
Because then your Sunday school teachers and nursery workers are like, we’re dying over here, let us out, let us out. Yeah. So you write in the book, worship is a dynamic and active conversation between a people and their God. Now, if somebody like a lay person is listening, and that might be a new concept to them, and you referred a bit to this, Katie, in our last conversation, worship is a dynamic and active conversation back and forth between the people and their God. What would you say to different workers, so laborers or white collar folks, what would you say to them as they’re sitting in the pews and wanting to be more intentional about how their vocation in labor blesses God and is given to him?
Katie Roelofs
This is part of where the honesty comes in that we talked about a little bit in the last episode. I think over time, many churches, many traditions, for a variety of different reasons have conditioned us to a pretty low level of authenticity and honesty in the sanctuary, meaning that the sanctuary is the place where we praise, where we give thanks, where we are joyful, and there isn’t a lot of space for honest laments and for honest prayers of, it is really hard, God. Nobody else around me knows what I have coming up this week, and this isn’t a safe space for you and I to talk about this, God, or a safe space for me to be able to share this with the people that are around me.
The idea of worship as dialogue, it requires authentic and honest dialogue. Just imagine the rest of your earthly relationships, what would happen if they were either one-sided? Maybe we’ve all been in one-sided relationships where the dialogue is only one way and it starts to suffer and falter. And also ones where you can’t show up and be your true self and be honest. And the ability to be able to do that in worship, in my opinion, has suffered over time.
Case Thorp
So true.
Matthew Kaemingk
Yeah. So, I mean, just to reframe for a moment, the sermon, you know, we’ve all been in sermons where our mind drifts away from the sermon. Not in yours, Case.
Case Thorp
Well, not in mine, but go ahead. I’ve heard this happens. Go ahead.
Matthew Kaemingk
Yeah. Allegedly in other congregations, your mind drifts away during the sermon towards the things of work. Maybe it’s a conflict with a colleague, or a sharp word that was said that week, or a project that isn’t getting done, or just a big time concern. And when that happens, a lot of workers can sort of feel guilty for being, they can feel guilty that they’re not paying attention to the sermon, that they’re not being quote unquote spiritual, that they, you know, as opposed to thinking, maybe, just maybe, God has prompted me to think about this and I need to bring this to Him. Maybe I need to bring this, you know, workplace relationship or workplace conflict to this sermon. So maybe this is not an unwanted interruption, but maybe this is the Holy Spirit’s interruption that I’m holding something back from God that I actually need to bring. And that kind of reframing, I think, can be really helpful to some people who are, frankly, beating themselves up for not being, quote unquote, spiritual on Sundays.
Case Thorp
The distractions, the stress, the thinking about what to do on Monday. What do I need to go to home on a Sunday afternoon or evening to get ready for the week? It can really be distracting, but yet God can speak in that. He can lean into you in that. Matt, you mentioned in our last conversation about the way in which in Israelite worship, things were lifted up, lifted above their heads. And for some, hearing this conversation, might think, y’all are being a little too creative. Look, keep worship biblically based. The ordinary means of grace are enough. We don’t need to do all this fancy creative stuff. Talk to us a little bit about Israel’s worship overall and why this is in fact quite biblical. Look at you smile. This is your kind of thing. Oh, here we go.
Matthew Kaemingk
Katie’s laughing. Katie’s laughing because I’m getting all riled up here. So worship in the Old Testament was super messy. It was filled with goats and cows and shepherds and it smelled. And people were constantly bringing their work in. And in fact, many of the worship services in the Old Testament are actually led by the worker.
The priest is off to the side. It’s the worker who’s bringing the offerings and saying the prayers. Moreover, in the New Testament and the early church, people are constantly bringing the work of their hands into worship. In fact, the very first worship book in Christianity has specific prayers for the blessings of cheese, the blessings of olives and fish. So a fisherman could come in, bring his fish, and there was a liturgy for accepting fish and blessing his fish. And the worship leader was commanded to say exactly these words when the fish were brought in. That’s the very first worship book. So this notion that there’s this pure, simple biblical worship that is not so complicated by work is just a myth.
Biblical worship is filled with work. And then finally, you got me all riled up here, Case. So finally is just look at the Psalms. The Psalms themselves are packed full of worker language and God is, He is compared to a farmer, an irrigator, an engineer, a shepherd, a waitress. He’s doing all, well, He fills my cup to overflowing.
There it is right there. But it’s filled with all of these things. Some of the Psalms talk about being cheated in the marketplace and like crying out to God that, you know, the wealthy man is cheating us in the marketplace. So yeah, once again, this notion that biblical worship is not earthy and material is just a complete myth. Done. My sermon’s over.
Case Thorp
There you go. We should be praying for Katie. My goodness, she has to…
Katie Roelofs
I was too distracted thinking about my work while you were preaching, so no.
Case Thorp
Yeah, your work is doing this. So explain that to me. And thank you, Matt, that’s very helpful. And I was so grateful when I got into seminary and we worked through particularly Nehemiah and saw the undergirding liturgy that was big in the Reformed tradition to see, okay, this is why we do this and move that way and do that. And what are the essential components? So it is helpful to think of those things.
Now, let’s get into the worshipforworkers.com. So you’re an organization, is that right? And plan to continue to create resources and people can go to the website and get them.
Matthew Kaemingk
Yeah, that’s right. So we partner with faith and work centers around the country, as well as the Made to Flourish network. And we do events around the country, concerts and things like that. We also do trainings for pastors and worship leaders. But the core thing of what we do is provide online resources so that churches all over the country can go to our website and get free prayers, blessings, worship plans, all those kinds of things. It’s all there at worshipforworkers.com. And Katie is the master of that website, and so she can answer any questions you have about it.
Case Thorp
And I think, Katie, you may have referenced, or I don’t know who did, that these come from a variety of theological streams. So you can go to the site and find things that fit within your tradition and style.
Katie Roelofs
That is correct. We have several prayers that are listed online that are written by our dear friends in the Roman Catholic tradition and different from the way that I worship on Sunday, but something that will be beautiful and will bless their churches as well. It’s a very wide, diverse group of things that are on that site. And the goal is that as people read them, not everything is going to work for you. We say that up front too, that not everything is going to work for you, but the goal is that it opens up your imagination and your curiosity for what will work in your context.
Case Thorp
I found on the website that in 2024 you had a song competition as you were looking for sending songs. So something maybe at the benediction or the end of a service that sends people out. Tell me about that.
Katie Roelofs
We did, we hosted a “sending songs” competition back in 2024. And the winning song from that album is on the new Porter’s Gate Sending Songs album that starts to release at the end of this month. The first song comes out on March 27th.
Case Thorp
Okay, and we’re recording this in March. So this will be out once that is already out and released. We’ll certainly share that on our social media. Tell me about how you’ve shaped the competition and what sort of entries you get.
Katie Roelofs
I did a quick audit of hymnals, curious for any of the listeners out there to do the same thing. Open up if you are a church that uses hymnals, open up the hymnal you use and see what percentage of your hymnal are what we consider closing songs or sending songs. So often many churches default either to a Praise God From Whom All Blessings Flow, we love to pull in those like eschatological hymns as our closing ones, the I’ll Fly Away or Onward Christian Soldiers. But when we think about the formative work that that does over time, what we want is we want a song that’s sending people, helping to do that work of sending and blessing back into the streets, back into the work that God has for them for the week.
Case Thorp
Yeah, not just to the mission field, not just for evangelism, but sending them into their daily work habits.
Katie Roelofs
Yep. And so we recognize that there is a very small song diet of what we call “sending songs” and wanted to do something about that and to kind of just get a movement starting where people will consider that and think about that. And I’ve had people reach out that have said, you’ve ruined it for me because now I can’t include any of our normal songs as sending songs anymore. And then I say, well, here’s the practice of song framing.
You can sing any song you want to and with just two or three sentences, it can change the way that the congregation engages the song to give it a sending focus. But this particular song competition was strictly for sending songs. And they’re all posted up on our website and free for use.
Case Thorp
Do you have more competitions planned?
Matthew Kaemingk
Yeah, I think we’d love to do it again. I mean, it was a great success, but we don’t have one planned yet. But I think it’s a great model to gather lots of creative people who are out there. I think Katie wasn’t surprised, but I was surprised by how many submissions, how many creative people there are out there who make wonderful things. You know, it seems to me like the worship industry is kind of dominated by a number of big, you know, worship creator, like content creator type people. And you can kind of easily forget that small congregations all over the country are packed full of really creative songwriters, prayer writers, poets, that are doing really cool stuff.
Case Thorp
Yeah. Well, you tell me as worship experts, but my observation is the local movement, the localizing of food sources and fashion and architecture to particular regions of the country, I think that that sort of approach to worship is taking place in the churches that are growing and growing most deeply, maybe not in number, but by that I mean don’t just use a plug and play. Hey, we’re going to take Christian radio songs and own them. And the same thing goes for traditional worship in terms of we’re kind of plugging and playing what Presbyterians did in 1952. Right? Like in our church, we’ve got both traditional and contemporary styles. But like you say, we’re going to write stuff, we’re going to make it unique in that artistic expression is as much a part of the experience rather than the plug and play.
Matthew Kaemingk
Yeah, I mean, I can give you a practical, I completely agree. And I can give you a practical example to kind of back up what you’re saying, Case like, Katie and I can write a prayer, a generic prayer for nurses, right? We can do that. And I mean, I think it’s pretty good, but I mean, imagine if you were to, you know, invite eight nurses to lunch, you know, in the local hospital. And you were just to spend an hour with them, asking them about the hospital and what breaks their heart about their work and what they love about their work and what they long for in terms of healthcare. And you just spend an hour doing that. And if you wrote that prayer for them, right, as opposed to using something I wrote a thousand miles away, it would mean so much more to them because their pastor asks them, their pastor knows them and sees them. And so I think this is a big part of why we wrote this book is Katie and I don’t simply want to drop resources from a helicopter into churches, but we would love to see pastors and worship leaders asking these questions, thinking about their people and creating them themselves. I mean, that is, that’s where it really starts to sing.
Case Thorp
Katie, you’re nodding and smiling.
Katie Roelofs
Well, with the recognition that worship is always contextual. The same song can be sung by 4,000 churches across the country, but it’s going to mean something and it’s going to be significant in a different way to every church. And the more you can harness in on that contextuality and on the group of people that you are tasked with and have the privilege of leading every week, the better. And to follow up on what Matt was saying, your group of nurses, imagine what it looks like for them to write the prayer and to lead the prayer themselves that week. Thinking about the fact that the six year anniversary of COVID, when COVID first became a thing is probably right around now, right? It was March of 2020. And what it looks like to have eight nurses write a prayer for healthcare professionals on that anniversary and either lead it or have someone else lead it. But the power of the work of the people, the liturgy, the work of the people.
Case Thorp
The nurse example makes me realize, and perhaps I should have said this at the beginning, with this conversation is this basic theory that worship is formative. Worship is discipleship. And somebody listening may not have ever thought of it that way. They just think, this is an inherited tradition, or this is just what those kind of Christians do. And we may not recognize the words that you say and how you say them, the songs that you do, even just the kind of clothes you wear and the architecture of the building you sit in. All these things help form a Christian. So therefore, let’s be thoughtful and inform them in ways that help them be good disciples in their work. I am a big supporter of church plants, and this is not a slight on the many wonderful church plants that are out there and that are needed. But I realized early in my career, you know what, I like a church with chimneys. I am not called to serve a church that’s in a school or in an old grocery store. We need them. But there’s something to me that communicates in my faith walk as well as to my children. I want to be in an institution in the community that will be there 100 more years from now, that is in dialogue with the marketplace and the governmental leaders and the arts community. I want a church with chimneys. So that example, I think, is one of where I am formed in that environment and feel like that fits with discipleship.
Matthew Kaemingk
Do you mean chimneys or steeples? Chimneys, like fireplaces. Okay. All right, okay.
Case Thorp
Chimneys, baby, chimneys, yes, yes. Yeah, so my first church of call was First Presbyterian in Baton Rouge founded in 1829, I think, 27, 1827. And the building was probably built in 1920s, but there were fireplaces all over the place. Here at First Presbyterian Orlando, they did a massive renovation in 2000 or so. The fireplaces are not to be seen. They’re covered up, I guess, but on the outside, you can see chimneys all over the place.
Matthew Kaemingk
What is a fireplace doing in Florida? I mean when it gets to like 60, 65 degrees, is that when you need a fireplace? Like, what is this, man?
Case Thorp
Very good point. Yes. Well, there’s about eight days a year when I can use my fireplace, and about six of those days we have to turn on the air at the same time so that we don’t get blown out. Yeah.
Katie Roelofs
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a church with a chimney. I’m thinking about it now, like through my list.
Matthew Kaemingk
That’s awesome. That’s great.
Case Thorp
My goodness, you’re missing out. You’re missing out. But it does, and it’s not always helpful. I mean, you can be formed in negative ways. You could come to a church with big columns like ours and think, ooh, hooty snooty, and this is to socialize with the power brokers. I mean, there’s the detrimental side of this, because we’re all fallen. But I really appreciate how you’re kind of calling the question on forming workers and forming them well.
Matthew Kaemingk
Yeah. So, I mean, this formation thing, you know, for the ancient people of Israel, the whole point of worship was to remember that you were in Egypt. So the people of Israel were constantly forgetting what God had done for them in Egypt. And so worship was this rehearsal of saying it over and over and over again. And so when a worker would bring, you know, like a farmer, when a farmer would bring his first fruits.
The danger was always he was going to think to himself, look at all this great stuff that I made. Look at all, look at how wealthy I am. Look, look at how, how secure I am and how safe I am and what a great farmer I am. And the purpose of the worship, he would say a prayer in which he had to say, you know, my forefathers were slaves. They were wandering in the wilderness and God brought me to this land.
And without God, I would still be wandering. And so the whole purpose of the worship service was to remind the worker where they would have been. And also to remind the worker that the wealth was for sharing because the worship service was a sharing service where they would share the fruit with their servants and foreigners and, you know, migrants and widows and orphans. So the whole purpose of worship was to form the worker and remind the worker of what work is for. So, you know, sometimes people think Katie and I are doing something new and revolutionary and right, we’re just saying, no, actually we’re doing something incredibly old. We’re trying to bring worship back to ancient Israel and the early church was, it was for workers, you know.
Case Thorp
To what degree did the ancient Israelite society being a pre-cash, pre-currency type society have an influence on things? Because on the one hand, I could think you brought your goats and sheep and pigeons for sacrifice because that represented your agricultural produce. But did we lose something when societies went to a cash system for wealth?
Matthew Kaemingk
Yeah, absolutely. We lost something and also money is, money is confusing as well because today people think about the offering as giving to God or giving to the church. So they think of it as like a donation. Yeah. Well, they think of it as a donation to a nonprofit. So like, I’m putting it in the plate, like I would give to World Vision or to Compassion International.
They start to think that they are helping God, as if God needed them. And in ancient Israel, they’d take a cow up there, and they would just burn it to ashes. And there’s no confusion when you burn a cow to nothing. No one’s going to eat that. No one’s going to use it. So it was actually quite wasteful in that sense.
Case Thorp
Well, and God in the Psalms would even say, do you really think I need the cattle on a thousand hills? But rather the idea is that He’s smelling and breathing in their burning sacrifices, and that is pleasing Him. That aroma is pleasing because it represents their genuine sacrifice and desire to serve.
Matthew Kaemingk
Yeah, so money has messed us up in a variety of ways, but specifically in worship. I don’t know, Katie, if you have anything.
Katie Roelofs
A lot of our language also goes into the direction then of I’m giving this money because this money is going to go to do God’s work.
When in all reality, if we believe in the priesthood of all believers, your work matters as much as the organizations that you are funding overseas. Your work matters in the same way.
Case Thorp
Yeah. For sure. Well, if money has messed us up, how now, as we shift to all electronic, I don’t carry cash anymore. I think, my children have cash?
Yeah, so my daughter is in college and she has a roommate and there’s a man who cuts their grass and he only knows cash. And he doesn’t have Venmo and all these fancy things. And she had to pay me the other day and called me like, what do I do? How do I get cash? And I said, remember the ATM? Yeah, I mean, it was an honest question.
So I wonder how will the digitization of currency further twist with our offering? And maybe that leads me back around to how much more important your work is.
Matthew Kaemingk
Yeah. So, I mean, let’s think about one other thing that gets lost, which is the firstfruits. So firstfruits is more than just, you know, a 10% or a cut or an extra. You know, coming from Seattle where we, you know, have lots of apples out there in Washington. And, in October when the apples are about to be picked, but they’re not quite picked, that’s a very nerve wracking time for farmers because a storm could come through at the last minute and destroy the apples. And so first fruits is, you’re taking the first ones that come ripe and you’re giving them away. So you’re, you don’t know if the whole crop is going to come in. So you are giving, you know, and you’re putting yourself in a position of dependence. So you’re not giving off of the extra, you’re giving before the whole harvest has come in. The second part of firstfruits is you’re giving the fruit that you are really proud of. So with money, it’s not like, this $50 bill is my favorite $50 bill. They all mean the exact same to you. So with money, your work is kind of flattened. So the other thing that we have to talk about is what is the part of your work that you’re really proud of?
There’s a portion of your work that you just really geek out about. And you’re like, wow, I really crushed it. Or I just love this. I was in a state of flow of total joy and success. And that’s not the same as just going to a boring meeting or doing the job. And God actually wants you to take that portion of work that you love the most and he wants to share it with you. He wants to share that joy and that delight. And that time of offering is this moment for you of deep spiritual joy and pride of what you made. And when all we do is give money, it’s just sort of this flat thing, right? And so there’s this kind of childlike pride that we have in this portion of our work that is lost when we just do money. And so that’s something Katie and I are thinking about. We haven’t totally figured out how to resurrect that. But yeah, I don’t know if you have thoughts, Katie.
Katie Roelofs
We’ve tried things or other churches that we’ve worked with have tried like a physical tangible offering. Have congregation members bring something of the work of their hands. Bring the successful IEP that you just worked through with a child at school or bring the spreadsheet that represents the grant that you just applied for or bring whatever it is that you are proud of, that first fruit moment. Bring it to church with you and during the offering, bring it forward.
Case Thorp
Now that’s cool.
Katie Roelofs
As you can imagine, that’s met with some, that’s awkward, right? That’s very awkward. Nobody quite, like that’s like a step too far. You have to stair step your way to get there. I’ve worked with a couple of churches though who have had the children lead the way. And that’s been very powerful and very poignant that they have a children’s offering during the normal offering time where kids bring the work of their hands, whether it’s the Lego statue that they made or whether it’s the test that they studied really hard for or the first time that they learned cursive and wrote their name in cursive, something that they’re proud of that they have done. And they’ll bring that forward and they’ll lay that before God and say, thank you God for this. And that has been a beautiful moment.
Case Thorp
Matt Kaemingk, Katie Roelofs, thank you so much. Really appreciate it and God’s blessings on your work.
Katie Roelofs
Thank you, Case.
Matthew Kaemingk
Absolutely rich blessings to you all and these conversations, love the podcast, man. This is a great conversation. Thank you.
Case Thorp
If you want to explore their book or more about this project, go to worshipforworkers.com. We’ll have it in our show notes. The book is Leading Worship for Workers: How to Design Liturgies for All of Life, published by Baker Press. Maybe you would like to get a copy for your pastor or the music leaders that may put together your liturgy. Well, friends here at The Collaborative, we create content and you need experiences for Christ-centered professionals in the public square, and we’re here to serve.
Go to our website, wecolabor.com to explore our work. Leave us your email and I’ll send you a copy of Zeitgeist, our journal on faith, work, and culture. Many thanks for today’s episode sponsor, The Stein Foundation. I’m Case Thorp, and God’s blessings on you.
