Show Notes
What does it actually mean to take art seriously as a form of theological witness in our everyday lives?
In this second episode of a two-part conversation on the Nuance podcast, host Case Thorp continues his discussion with Dr. Wesley Vander Lugt, editor of A Prophet in the Darkness, to ponder the broader intersections of faith, theology, and the arts.
Wes argues that because humans are made in the image of a Creator, we are all naturally creative—and what we create ultimately reveals what we worship. Drawing on his work at Gordon-Conwell, he makes the case that visual art offers a profound, mysterious encounter with God that transcends propositional knowledge and mere words.
From navigating the Reformed tradition’s historic preference for an “aesthetics of the ear” to challenging the myth of the isolated artist, Wes’s work seeks to integrate holistic, sensory experiences into Christian worship, spiritual formation, and the public square.
📚 Episode Resources:
A Prophet in the Darkness: Exploring Theology in the Art of Georges Rouault: https://www.ivpress.com/a-prophet-in-the-darkness
Additional works referenced in A Prophet in the Darkness: https://ivpress.com/rouault
InterVarsity Press: https://ivpress.com
The Leighton Ford Initiative for Theology, Arts, and Gospel Witness: https://www.gordonconwell.edu/giving/ford-initiative/
Dr. Wesley Vander Lugt’s website: https://www.wesleyvanderlugt.com/
Slow Art Day: https://www.slowartday.com/
Nuance is a podcast of The Collaborative where we wrestle together about living our Christian faith in the public square. Nuance invites Christians to pursue the cultural and economic renewal by living out faith through work every facet of public life, including work, political engagement, the arts, philanthropy, and more.
Each episode, Dr. Case Thorp hosts conversations with Christian thinkers and leaders at the forefront of some of today’s most pressing issues around living a public faith.
Visit wecolabor.com for resources, events, and more.
Episode Transcript
Case Thorp
In the first episode of our conversation, we stayed with the art. We talked about the art of Georges Rouault, an early 20th century French painter. My guest, Dr. Wesley Vander Lugt, discussed Rouault’s way of seeing, about the faces he paints in the particular darkness that his work refuses to stay within, but always lead to hope.
Well, in this second episode, we are going to take a deliberate turn. We’re going to focus on his book that gathers these reflections called A Prophet in the Darkness, published by InterVarsity Press Academic. And we’re going to ponder a broader question that it raises. What does it mean to take art seriously as a form of theological witness? Here at The Collaborative, we care deeply about faith and its witness in the public square, and art is such a great part of that witness, we need to talk about it and to lean in. So this episode is less about a description of Rouault’s work. If you’d like to hear that and you missed the last episode, maybe hit pause, go listen to that one, pick back up here. Because today is more about discernment, less about lingering with an image and more about asking what kind of faith is formed when we do. So Wes Vander Lugt is a theologian and teacher, and editor of this work, A Prophet in the Darkness and author of quite a number of other works. And he teaches at Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary. He earned his PhD from the University of St. Andrews in Scotland and serves as an adjunct professor of theology as well as the acting director of the Leighton Ford Initiative for Theology, the Arts and Gospel Witness at Gordon Conwell Seminary. Well Wes, thanks for being with me again.
Wesley Vander Lugt
Thank you for having me.
Case Thorp
So, faith and art, they are seemingly so very different in so many ways and yet bound together, I believe, and fully think that they are. For somebody who might be new to this conversation as to how and why that faith and art belong together, speak to one another, what would you say?
Wesley Vander Lugt
There are so many things we could talk about along those lines. Yeah, but, you know, at its essence, this conversation is important because human beings are created in the image of a maker to make things. So artistic creation is what Tolkien called sub-creation. It’s taking the white light of God’s creativity and refracting it through all of the different colors of our creative expressions.
And so not everyone is aligned with the Creator in terms of truth and goodness and beauty, but that capacity to create comes from the Creator. So art is a place where we can encounter the glory of God, where we can encounter creativity that comes from God. And so it’s a ripe area of life for encountering not only what it means to be human, but also really what it means to be created in the image of God and who God is like. I always say that art is worship, so if you want to know what people really care about, what they think is most worthwhile, and what they worship, just look at what they’re creating.
Case Thorp
So good. Well, when I teach the biblical narrative, I dwell on the fact that God is known as Creator in Genesis 1 and 2. He’s not known like the Egyptian gods were to be a god of fertility or of the river or of the sun, but yet he is a creating God. And if we’re in his image, we’re little creators. And you may not feel like you’re a Picasso or a Rouault, but you do create something, whether it be children or through your work, you create economic value, you provide services of value. So I have to work a little bit to help people see that they are creators.
Wesley Vander Lugt
Yeah, not everyone is an artist, but everyone is creative. And making that distinction, I think, is really important to show how we all participate in this divine story of creativity.
Case Thorp
Now for your work, I know that you’re not only trying to dig into Rouault’s life and share his contributions, because as we established last time, he was a very committed believer in Christ, very strong Roman Catholic. But for this particular volume, why now and why this project?
Wesley Vander Lugt
Part of it was circumstantial that we had a symposium based on Rouault’s work. We had his work here in the building. I invited a whole bunch of people to engage with his work, not just on the level of the scholarship, but had artists responding to his work, making their own work. And those presentations and the pairing of contemporary artistic responses and scholarly engagements, I thought made a really unique volume. There’s not a whole lot out there in terms of learning about Rouault, you’ve got some biographies, have articles here or there, some edited volumes, but I wanted to show how Rouault is relevant for today, and part of that is understanding the trajectory of his life and what his art means, but including these artistic examples and statements from contemporary visual artists and poets to say Rouault’s art has inspired their own and this is how. That was an important part of it for me.
Case Thorp
Yeah, that is very unique. So there are nine articles in this book, and after each one there’s an artist who reflects on their particular work, and their work is in the book. So you can meditate and reflect on their work while also reading an article about what they have to say. How did you go about choosing the academicians to write for this volume?
Wesley Vander Lugt
I made a list of everyone who had some expertise on Rouault and I invited them all. Essentially, there were some that I didn’t invite because I wanted a good balance of art historians, theologians, and community leaders. So I tried to have a good balance of that, made a couple invitations, and folks were delighted to come because Rouault is not very well known in the broader world and certainly not in the church, but has so much to offer in terms of his honest vision of reality. And also, I think there is an acknowledgement, there was at least during that symposium, that Rouault provides a certain model for artistic practice today, and that was part of what we wanted to explore as well.
Case Thorp
Tell us about that model.
Wesley Vander Lugt
Well, he made art in community, so I think that’s really important that we let go of this false notion of the artist as some isolated genius just creating work apart from any other forces. And is deeply embedded within his church community, his friendships, his family, and all of his work. I mean, I think all artwork, but we see it in Rouault, was deeply personal. So that’s a big part of it. And then how he was able to become, I hesitate to use the word expert, but to become a master at his craft through apprenticeship. So that’s important of submitting to a certain tradition, submitting to mentors before finding your own voice. And then finally, think Rouault’s honesty, his willingness and ability to tell all the truth and tell its slant through his particular form of art making is a really powerful model for how to do that, whatever your artistic medium might be.
Case Thorp
So good. Well, speaking of models, in your article in the book, page 139, you give us another paradigm, if you will, to engage art. You speak of Anne Bogart, Anne Bogart that she speaks of the power of triads in the creative process. And when it comes to creating the right conditions for resonating with the art, you write. I would suggest the triad of availability, perception, and response. Availability, perception, response. Why those three and talk to us more about those.
Wesley Vander Lugt
Yeah. So just to back up a little bit, I think we can struggle in engaging with visual art these days because there’s just so many images in our lives. And when an artist creates something, you know, that it’s not that their intention is to create something that they hope will mean something to someone else, will impact them in some way. Well, in order for that to happen or for there to be a possibility of that kind of encounter, what I’m calling resonance with a work of art, we first have to take the time necessary to really let that work of art speak to us. So that first part availability is simply about showing up. And I’m a big fan of slow art and slow art day, which I celebrate every April, which the challenge is to spend 20 minutes with a work of art. Don’t go move on to the next thing immediately. Try to really focus on what is it that you’re encountering. And notice, notice, notice, pay attention so that the art can really speak to you. And that can lead to true understanding, what I’m calling perception, which is different than just looking at a work of art. It’s what is the artist trying to do? How is he using these particular styles to communicate something? How is it impacting me? How might my conceptual framework or imaginary that I’m bringing to this painting, either align with it or clash with it, right? Some of those questions about understanding, and then there can be the appropriate response. But often we start with a response of, I don’t like that, or that makes me uncomfortable, or, that’s really nice, without taking the time to be fully present and taking the time to move slowly through a process of perception and understanding.
Those are the kind of conditions that I think really create the possibility of resonating with a work of art so that we can be changed.
Case Thorp
Are you familiar with Lectio Visua?
Wesley Vander Lugt
Yeah, so there’s a lot of similarities there for sure.
Case Thorp
Yeah, well we’re big at The Collaborative on spiritual formation and that it pairs with anything else that we might do in an academic sense. And Rachel de Guia is a dear friend and she’s on the staff of CRU and I do a seminar called Gotham Fellows and every year I have her come and lead a Lectio Visua experience. And for those that may not be familiar, this is sort of, as Wes is describing, a deep reflection on a particular piece of art. And you’re led through a variety of questions and moments for observation. And you come through the whole experience, usually having experienced death, resurrection, and glory. And it’s very unique, very different. Okay.
Wesley Vander Lugt
Yeah, I might have suggest she use Rouault for your next Visio Divina and perhaps depending on the season I could make some suggestions. We did some of that in some of our own chapel services here at the seminary where we chose a couple of his works and then spent 10 minutes in Visio Divina with it.
Case Thorp
Fantastic. Well, you, so you alluded to taking in art slowly. You write on page 140 about slow art as a growing movement. You say, one of the reasons people often feel exhausted after walking through an art museum is that the average amount of time spent before a painting, which holds a freight of meaning and potential for resonance is 15 seconds. And often it is much less than that. Within the scope of our fast-paced internet-shaped lives, 15 seconds might seem like a long time, but it is not nearly enough time to be fully present and available for resonance and transformation. So true.
Wesley Vander Lugt
That’s right. Yeah, there’s a slow art value on the making side, and then there’s the slow art value on the receiving side. So you have some contemporary artists like Makoto Fujimura who actually use that tagline slow art to describe the process of engaging with materials and taking your time with the materials to present them a certain way. And that’s really important. And then on the reception side, it’s equally important and sometimes we ignore the responsibility of the viewer to encounter the artist and what the artist has made through our own slow approach.
Case Thorp
So I can imagine somebody must have sat in the MoMA with a timer and did an average of how many seconds does somebody engage a piece of art.
Wesley Vander Lugt
Somebody did this research project, yes. But the challenge of Slow Art Day, which is usually the last Saturday of April, is to just spend a morning at an art museum and ideally go in with a group of friends and you all disperse and choose five works to engage with that morning for 20 minutes each. And then you come back together for lunch and you talk about your experience.
Case Thorp
That’s great.
Wesley Vander Lugt
I guarantee it will be more revelatory than trying to do the entire museum, is the language we use. I did the Mint Museum or I did the Bechtler. Maybe we’re not supposed to see everything in one visit, right?
Case Thorp
Yeah. Repeat visits. So this is a day you say, Slow Art Day. Is there a website where I can learn more?
Wesley Vander Lugt
Slow Art Day. Yep, there’s a website and I assume it’s still active. I haven’t checked this year, but normally it’s been the last Saturday of every April and there are groups in cities around the world who are engaging in art this way.
Case Thorp
Okay, well, I’ll go look that up and if I can find a link, I will put that in our show notes. Maybe The Collaborative should host a Slow Art Day.
Wesley Vander Lugt
Sounds like a great idea. You have some great art there in Orlando.
Case Thorp
Here it is, slowartday.com, April 11th this year.
Wesley Vander Lugt
It’s earlier this year. That seems to, no, I think that’s the Saturday after Easter. I was thinking, I was thinking it was Holy Weekend. Yeah.
Case Thorp
Easter, right. Yeah, Easter is really early this year. Very interesting. Well, how, how do theologians sometimes misunderstand or misuse art?
Wesley Vander Lugt
I think one of the misuses is to focus too much on the message, on a sort of didacticism of assuming that this art communicates one thing and communicates that clearly. You know, so I think that does, that can do a disservice to the artists who may or may not know exactly what they’re trying to communicate depending on their process and their tradition.
But also in terms of what art can do, art does more in our lives than just communicate intellectual information or propositional knowledge. It impacts us emotionally, impacts us relationally, it impacts us on the level of our core disposition. So it limits the scope of how the art’s been created as well as the potential for what art can do in our lives today.
So that would be one. And then, you know, I think it’s so easy for art to turn into propaganda, to kind of be leveraged for some kind of ideology. And I don’t think any particular group is specifically to blame for that. I think that’s a human tendency to take powerful works of creativity and to leverage them for particular niche ideology or purpose and we just need to be very very wary of that no matter our tradition.
Case Thorp
Now, when you say propaganda, my mind goes to Uncle Sam pointing his finger and I need you. Is it that explicit or what would be some other examples of propaganda?
Wesley Vander Lugt
Sure. Yeah.
You know, I think there are certain… it’s easy to pick on images, but we could also think about music that… you know, think about some particular hymns that we might love and are getting used to singing, but are they actually promoting the correct vision of reality, or is it just the one that we prefer and the one that we want to uphold? So that’s what I’m talking about in terms of just solidifying what we already know or what we want to know, rather than leading us to the end of ourselves so we can encounter the true mystery of God in the story that we’re participating in.
Case Thorp
I think mystery is an important word there. Being a Calvinist and in the reform camp, as I believe you would call yourself, we’re so confessional. We’re so worried about doctrine and so we use lots of words and lots of words to explain other words and more words to explain those words to keep ourselves within confessional truth. But art doesn’t, you know, it’s mystery, it’s encounter. it isn’t confessionally tight, and I can imagine that is difficult and worrisome for some traditions.
Wesley Vander Lugt
Yeah, well, and there’s a lot to talk about there because I think there is, there can be a misunderstanding that the arts are not valued within the Reformed tradition or Calvinist traditions, and even within the Reformed tradition there’s a broad spectrum of approaches, whether historically or in the contemporary church. But by and large, there is a preference or there is an emphasis within this Protestant Reformed tradition on an aesthetics of the ear. So it’s an emphasis on the word, an emphasis on music. And I think it’s good to recognize that because like any church that has, you know, every church has a liturgy. Just as every church has a liturgy, so every church and every tradition has an aesthetic.
It’s not if, it’s what aesthetic do we have, what do we tend to privilege, what do we emphasize? And so there is a weakness in this particular tradition, I think, on the visual side of things. And there’s more that we could incorporate that’s for our benefit.
Case Thorp
You’re so right about that because I, as a pastor now for 25 years and in Presbyterian churches that have had both contemporary and traditional worship, this church has not had the worship wars as I’ve seen and experienced in other places and that’s a wonderful blessing to this particular place. But I always kind of chuckle with myself when there’s some skinny jean advocates, and I’ve got plenty of friends I love that wear skinny jeans, and they huff and puff and roll their eyes at traditional people and old people church. And I think, you know, if your pastor came out in a suit and tie, you would be upset because you’re right, there is an aesthetic to every single environment. Recognize that it exists rather than think yours is the best.
Wesley Vander Lugt
That’s right. Yes, there’s a default customary aesthetic and we need to begin with description before we can start evaluating. And I think it’s easy to rush through that and not do a proper job describing what the aesthetic actually is so it can be properly evaluated.
Case Thorp
Yeah. Well, and likewise, it goes the other way, where how many wool-suited Presbyterians would turn their nose up at a church that maybe feels extremely casual or careless and yet, no, no, there’s a very intentional aesthetic going on here.
Wesley Vander Lugt
I think there’s a lot of ecumenical potential in this conversation where we can say, okay, this is what we do really well in our tradition, but look at how they do this other thing really well in that tradition. I wonder what we could learn. I wonder if we could borrow and experiment with to engage the whole person in this experience.
Case Thorp
For sure. I’ve always said that Presbyterians don’t do retreats very well. The Methodists, they know how to do retreats. Now, when it comes to preaching and doctrine, love you Methodist, but we got you on that one. Wes, one of the neatest experiences of my life, and this must have been back in ‘98-‘99 with the Promise Keepers Movement and they would fill up stadiums with men and it was very, very encouraging and exciting to see. Well, they had a Promise Keepers clergy gathering in Atlanta at the Georgia Dome and I knew I was going on to seminary and so I went and it was fascinating to walk around the inside because you would have a Roman Catholic bishop in his full robe regalia with a little hat on next to a Pentecostal in jeans and a flannel shirt. And then you’ve got your Calvinist with their beards and their attractive glasses. So it was just such a mix of the kingdom and a visible evidence of the various approaches, traditions, histories, and what matters to them.
Wesley Vander Lugt
Yeah, I think it’s so important to have spaces where we can experience more of that and along with our global brothers and sisters, all kinds of different cultures and languages, that’s where you get the true rich aesthetic experience.
Case Thorp
Well, so many of our listeners live in professional worlds that are often filled with pressure, compromise or attempts at leadership and successes, but also fatigue. So what do you think Rouault could do to his art, particularly, do to help and form Christians in the workplace today?
Wesley Vander Lugt
I am personally inspired by Rouault because as we talked about a little bit about before, he created in relative anonymity and it wasn’t until much later in his life that he had shows and proper museums and was recognized in the art world. And there was an inspiring long obedience in the same direction that Rouault was able to model. And I’m not saying that was easy. If you read his journals, you know, there was a lot of angst and wondering, like, what am I actually doing? But the community in which he was a part of was a huge part of that. So it wasn’t just Rouault on his own saying, I’m going to commit to this and I’m going to be faithful. Others came alongside and encouraged and prodded him along as well. So it’s that personal commitment to faithfulness in the mundane, doing the little things that lead to a life of faithfulness, along with a community that can remind you why you’re there and who you are and the purpose of your daily vocation.
Case Thorp
So you say he did get to know some success in his own lifetime?
Wesley Vander Lugt
There was some shows and some opportunities for Rouault to be aware of that toward the very end of his life, but most of it was after his life.
Case Thorp
Now, more than just Rouault’s work, what would you say for a person in the workplace today? How could they integrate art into their prayer lives, into their reflection on who they are and what they’re made to do? Speak to the non-artists, but all creators, as you said.
Wesley Vander Lugt
Yes, we are all creative and we can all put ourselves in a position to receive the gift of art. You know, I think I’ll just speak personally what’s been really important for me, particularly if I feel stuck, if I feel like I’m in a rut or I just need a spark to approach a certain area of life with a little more creativity. That’s where the arts can be just very practical and helpful in my life because they’ll nudge me out of that rut through a story that I’m reading or a poem that I’m encountering or a song that I’m hearing. Just shifting my habits of thought and habits of imagination a little bit to consider some other possibilities. And I always find that that has a greater impact if I’m able to talk about that with somebody else.
So, you know, maybe I just sat down and watched the latest Knives Out mystery, which I thought was really wonderful, but had some resonance for thinking about life and what matters, you know, and it’s that extra conversation with someone who’s also seen the film that allows art to have that kind of impact in our lives.
Case Thorp
They’re so good. I’m in an EPC church, and you mentioned you’re at one there in Charlotte. We have an EPC pastors conversation chat room on Facebook, and the latest Knives Out movie, my goodness. I mean, it’s so faithful in some ways, it presents faith and grace and mercy. Wow.
Wesley Vander Lugt
Yeah, it’s a remarkable film for a lot of reasons. And I think for a pastor, you know, it’s a great film to watch and consider what kind of pastor do I want to be? And not in shame, but thinking about what kind of pastor have I been? What kind of pastor do I want to be? And yeah, what might shift a little bit in my life as inspired by that film?
Case Thorp
I looked it up and the director and the screenplay writer, neither are people of faith.
Wesley Vander Lugt
Right. Yeah, there’s some religious background there and that’s certainly comes out, I think, in some of what they’re wrestling with.
Case Thorp
Right. It’s just so amazing that they nailed it so well on some major Christian themes. So someone who may not be well versed in the arts, but yet they go, you know what, I like that Wes Vander Lugt. I want to go get this book, A Prophet in the Darkness. How, if they’re not visually literate, how should they approach the book?
Wesley Vander Lugt
Yeah, this book, you know, I’ve tried to make it accessible in providing some personal and historical introductions, but I think it’s really important as you’re reading an essay to have some work up on your computer screen. So there’s a resource in the back that gives us website for where you can access art, you know, because if you’re not used to engaging with visual art, it’s difficult to kind of imagine. And often Rouault will pair works together very intentionally. So in the Miserere series, for example, you know, plate five, six, and seven are intentionally placed there because of the story that he’s telling. So unless you’re able to see those and see them in succession, you’ll miss a little bit of what the authors are trying to communicate and what they’re wrestling with.
Case Thorp
Yeah. Was there a surprise or something that really challenged you in one of these articles that you invited a professor to write on? But was there something that shocked you?
Wesley Vander Lugt
Yeah, I wouldn’t say shocked, but I was particularly impacted by…trying to find which chapter it is. One second here. Chapter four, The Healing Poetics of George Rouault. It’s a fascinating contribution by Joel Klepac, who is an Orthodox Christian, capital O, Orthodox, as well as a family therapist. And he brings together this tradition of visual contemplation in the Orthodox Church with what he’s trying to get his patients to see and to encounter in family systems therapy. I just would have never connected those worlds. My wife is a therapist and I have some friends who are Orthodox, so it was challenging because both of those can be difficult to understand. What is Orthodox theology? What is family systems therapy? But he does a really good job of weaving them together, and I’m grateful for that contribution.
Case Thorp
Yeah. Well, thank you for this work. Thank you for the work of the Leighton Ford Institute. We need more of this in our world and I’m glad to know that you’re doing it.
Wesley Vander Lugt
Such a delight to be involved in this work for sure.
Case Thorp
Well, and I also appreciate you taking your time today. Friends, pick up a copy of A Prophet in the Darkness, Exploring Theology in the Art of George Rouault, published by IVP Academic. I’m also going to put a number of these websites that we’ve discussed in our show notes, particularly the website at IV Press to be able to go see his art that is referred to in the book. And then slowartday.com sounds really interesting.
Well friends, thanks for making the, and also don’t let me forget, Wes’s website. You can learn more about his academic pursuits at wesleyvanderlugt.com. Well friends, I do appreciate you making space for this conversation. If something sharpened your thinking or helped you find your footing, consider sharing it with a colleague, leave a review. Those little small acts carry a lot of weight and push our content even further.
If you’d like to stay connected, give us your email address at wecolabor.com. We’ll send you a copy of Zeitgeist, our current journal on faith, work, and culture. Many thanks to the Canaparo family for their generous support of today’s episode. I’m Case Thorp, and God’s blessings on you.
