Show Notes
Wine has shaped Christian worship, community, and spiritual formation far more than many realize. In this episode of Nuance, host Case Thorp sits down with Gisela Kreglinger and Randy Frazee to explore how wine functions as a powerful spiritual tool—rooted in scripture, hospitality, and the sacramental life of the church.
Gisela and Randy share how their personal experiences with wine have shaped their understanding of faith and community. They dive into the origins of the “Wine in the Word” study, a unique blend of theology, biblical symbolism, agrarian insights, and wine appreciation that helps believers connect more deeply with the story of God. Along the way, they unpack how wine reflects themes of suffering and abundance in the Lord’s Supper, why younger generations are rediscovering sacramental practices, and how cultural backgrounds shape our perspectives on wine in the Christian life.
Together, they explore how sharing wine can foster community, bridge societal divides, and cultivate joy—reminding us of what it means to live as God’s beloved people. From transformative wine pilgrimages to everyday practices of hospitality, this conversation offers a fresh, compelling look at the intersection of Christian spirituality, biblical interpretation, and the ancient tradition of wine.
Enjoy a rich and engaging episode for anyone interested in spiritual formation, Christian community, biblical studies, hospitality, and the role of wine in faith and culture.
Episode Resources:
Wine in the Word: https://harperchristianresources.com/wine-in-the-word/
Wine in the Word trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5dQQK6RX1I
Wine in the Word Session 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5dQQK6RX1I
Gisela’s website: thespiritualityofwine.com
Gisela’s Instagram: @giselakreglinger
Randy’s website: www.randyfrazee.com
Randy’s Instagram: @randyfrazee
Randy’s Youtube: @Randy.Frazee
Nuance is a podcast of The Collaborative where we wrestle together about living our Christian faith in the public square. Nuance invites Christians to pursue the cultural and economic renewal by living out faith through work every facet of public life, including work, political engagement, the arts, philanthropy, and more.
Each episode, Dr. Case Thorp hosts conversations with Christian thinkers and leaders at the forefront of some of today’s most pressing issues around living a public faith.
Our hope is that Nuance will equip our viewers with knowledge and wisdom to engage our co-workers, neighbors, and the public square in a way that reflects the beauty and grace of the Gospel.
Learn more about The Collaborative:
Website 👉 https://wecolabor.com
Get to know Case 👉 https://collaborativeorlando.com/team/
Episode Transcript
Case Thorp
What if God gave us wine, not for escape, not just for appreciation, but for formation? What if tasting and savoring God’s creation can draw us deeper into scripture, deeper in worship and community, and even in God’s mission to the world? Well, today we’re exploring why wine matters and how it can shape us as Christians and be an amazing tool for formation. Welcome to Nuance, where we seek to be faithful in the public square.
So as newlyweds, Jodi and I, we got into Yellow Tail. You know, that not-so-expensive wine with the kangaroo on the front? Well, let me tell you, we thought we were hot stuff. But then over time, we met people with more means, we were served better wine, and we realized how bad Yellow Tail really was. But as our taste got more more expensive, we eventually kind of topped out, like I just can’t to this day bring myself to pay over $25 for a bottle of wine on the regular dinner thing. Now, special occasion sure, but I’ve got my limits. Then we got a friend and he introduced us to $400 Silver Oak and I’m like wow. I actually found myself fishing for an invitation by hanging out at their house in hopes he would open that cellar again.
Well, it’s amazing how wine brings us together. And it’s certainly a major thematic anchor in scripture, appearing in so many places and having such meaning, especially when it comes to the sacrament. So wine is integral to our Christian faith. And that’s what brings me to my guests today. I’m so grateful to have Gisela Kreglinger and Randy Frazee. Gisela and Randy, thank you for being here.
Randy Frazee
Excited to be here.
Gisela Kreglinger
Thank you for having us.
Case Thorp
Yes. So they are the authors of a six-part study with videos called Wine in the Word, Why God Gave us the Gift of Wine. And I’ve seen parts of this study in the videos and it’s very well done. It’s great theology and it really dives deep into scripture and how wine shapes our faith.
So let me tell you about our two guests. So Gisela grew up among the vineyards of Franconia, Germany, where her family cultivated wine for generations. She’s a theologian with two master’s degrees from Regent College and a PhD in historical theology from the University of St. Andrews. Gisela weaves together theology, creation, and the senses. She leads wine pilgrimages. My goodness, Gisela, I got to join you for one of those. She teaches spirituality in churches and classrooms and has authored The Spirituality of Wine, The Soul of Wine, and Cup Overflowing.
Now, Randy Frazee is an author perhaps that you have heard of, well-known author and also a pastor at the Westside Family Church in Kansas City, a leading voice in spiritual formation. He’s best known as the architect of The Story Bible, a chronological abridged Bible presented without verse numbers. And Randy, I’ve got a copy right over here on my shelves. I should have pulled it out. He’s also the author of several influential books, including The Heart of the Story and Think, Act, Be Like Jesus. Okay. So I just want to start off. Tell me, what is your go-to when you need to pick a good glass of wine? What’s your go-to preference?
Randy Frazee
I’ll start because Gisela is much more poetic about it. Gisela and I have a great friendship, but we are very different in our wine. I think her palate is more complex than mine. So I’m the big, bold, Napa-Cab guy, and that’s kind of who I am. But Gisela, I’m sure yours is a little different because we’ve talked about this.
Gisela Kreglinger
Well, we went to Napa both for the filming and for the release of the video series, which Randy wonderfully organized. So I got to savor a lot of big, bold Cabs from Napa. So they are wonderful wines and I really enjoyed them. But I like less alcoholic wines, more delicate, maybe more earthy. So I love a good Pinot Noir or a Chardonnay.
Case Thorp
So, you know, earlier in my youth, it was a heavy, spicy Zinfandel was kind of my go-to. But I just can’t do it anymore. The sugar content. So now I’m kind of more of a Pinot Noir, Petite Sirah. It’s gotta be kind of like you. Gives a little bit, mine’s not out of refined taste. It’s more out of wanting to enjoy it, but not feel so horrible the next day.
Gisela Kreglinger
I don’t know, I mean, refined taste, yes and no, it’s really about learning what you enjoy. You might not be able to articulate as much why you enjoy a wine, but that doesn’t mean that it’s not refined. I think it’s really important to sort of make that sort of statement that you don’t have to be an expert or have to havev what you consider a very refined palate. It’s really about finding the kind of wine that you really enjoy, that speaks to you, that moves you, and that helps you match it with food. And yeah, go from there.
Case Thorp
Well, so this wonderful study you’ve done, Wine in the Word, what brought y’all together and then why this particular project?
Randy Frazee
I can kind of share a little bit of how we got together. I was actually filming a project for HarperCollins Christian on the Book of Acts in Kansas City, and there was a wine dispenser behind us and the videographer. I said, we need to do something, a video series on wine. He said I would love to do that. You know, this would be amazing videography. It would be amazing. I said, well, the head of the curriculum, he’s a craft beer guy, he’s never gonna do it. He says, no, no, no, we shifted the wine. He goes to Italy every other year and spends three months every summer in Paso Robles and it’s like, well, let’s just do a video, it’ll be fun. So we did a little video with the wine behind us and about a month later, my agent said, did you like, pitch the idea of doing something on wine? Like, yeah, they’re never going to do that. He says, no, they want to do it. But they want you to partner up with a Gisela Kreglinger. And I go, well, I know Gisela. I mean, a little bit. We had had dinner maybe several years prior. She was teaching at Laity Lodge here in San Antonio. And so we got together. I said, I’d love to do it with Gisela. So that’s how it actually came together.
Case Thorp
That’s great. And Gisela, what, and why did you agree when Randy called?
Gisela Kreglinger
Well, it was actually the publisher that approached me, and I thought that was such a great idea to pair me and my background that has written and studied it more on an academic level with a pastor who’s really passionate about wine and Randy and Rozanne are very, very into hospitality, opening their home. I mean, they just have this whole ethos integrated in their lives. So it seemed like a really great sort of partnership and it has been a great journey of sharing what we both are passionate about but from very different perspectives. I mean, maybe not so different, but certainly around the ads and angle and having been in pastoral ministry and being more aware of the kind of issues impressions that come out of that. I think it’s worked out really well in terms of us being in conversation and crafting the sessions together.
Case Thorp
Well, this study, I want to read to our listeners and viewers the title of the six episodes and then ask you about a few of these. So week one, Making Human Hearts Glad: Why God Gave us the Gift of Wine. Week two, Water into Wine: The Best is Yet to Come. Number three, The Lord’s Supper: Wine, Suffering and Abundance. Number four, Breaking Bread and Drinking Wine: Life Around the Table. Number five, What did the Saints Drink? The Tale of Two Wine Drinkers. And finally, Wine Tasting is Spiritual Practice: An Experiential Learning Journey.
So what was your approach in figuring where to land the plane, how to go best about looking at this topic?
Gisela Kreglinger
For me, in all of my work, the emphasis has always been to develop an understanding of the Christian life that’s deeply rooted in Scripture. So in all of my books that I’ve written, Scripture and the story of Scripture and how wine is woven into that story is very important to me and was really foundational for our project. I think Randy feels very similar, that Scripture is really the foundation of our lives and really understanding how the theme of wine is developing in Scripture and then building upon that. So that’s what viewers will find, that there’ll be a richness in meditating on Scriptures and pulling out certain themes and passages and then unpacking them for the audience and really helping our audience to have a more agrarian reading of scripture. Often we look for certain maybe moral lessons and then miss out on this rich agrarian narrative that’s embedded in scripture and makes our understanding of the Christian life a lot richer in understanding that this world that God created is foundational for understanding how we relate to God, not apart from creation, but through creation and including the fruits of the earth like food and wine.
Case Thorp
Yeah, that agrarian reading of scripture. I appreciate that. One of my favorite commentaries is a Messianic Jewish perspective. It’s a Jewish man who’s a Christian and he has a commentary on the gospels. And there’s so much more there that we miss or that I miss as a Gentile. And I can imagine the same is true…I’m not an agrarian. I live in a downtown city. Help our listeners understand what would be an agrarian reading.
Gisela Kreglinger
I think taking seriously the themes of agriculture, for example in the creation account we have Genesis and the Garden of Eden. The Garden of Eden really means the Garden of pleasure and delight. We have to take seriously that the way the Bible first envisions our lives as believers is in a garden. We relate to God through the world that he has made, through the trees that bear fruit and that are good for food. So we have to take that seriously. One person we really dive into a bit deeper is Noah. Noah is well known for being the one who built the ark by faith. And then he’s known for falling from grace because he got drunk. But actually, when you look at the text, and that Noah comes off the ark and makes a covenant, God makes a covenant with Noah and all the living creatures. And the next thing Noah does is he plants a vineyard. Now that should pass because wouldn’t it be much more practical to plant a fast yielding crop like grains? And yet Noah plants a vineyard. It takes four to five years to have a significant harvest like a batch of wine. And at the time, wine was also, and it still is, understood as part of a great civilization. Usually the upper class of the great civilizations would enjoy wine. So I want to make our audience aware that by Noah planting a vinyard, he also did that as an act of faith in God’s future and that God had long-term plans with Noah and his descendants.
Case Thorp
I love that. That’s wonderful. Well now, Randy, you’re retired, correct, from pastoral ministry?
Randy Frazee
I’m reallocating my time in different ways.
Case Thorp
Do you ever, yeah, the R word is not in the Bible, so you never really retire. Well, I can imagine a career in pastoral ministry, chapter number three meant a lot to you being on the Lord’s Supper. And the byline for that chapter is Wine, Suffering, and Abundance. Those are three interesting words to put together. Why did y’all choose wine, suffering, and abundance?
Randy Frazee
Right, right. Well, I think as you study, you know, the Lord’s Supper, which is obviously connected back to the Passover, and it’s certainly foreshadowing the marriage supper of the Lamb, these three most important meals where wine is at the very center of it, not only just the wine as a drink, but a whole meaning of wine in terms of the concept of the grape being crushed and the suffering of the grape and yet it ferments, it rises again, if you will, so this concept of what’s going on with wine, which is for me as a pastor, one of my super passions about this is, you know, I went to a seminary that prides itself in exegesis, you know, reading out what’s actually there versus eisegesis reading into. And yet, in my entire ministry, and even to this day, when it comes to the subject of wine, we read the Bible through the lens of prohibition. And Gisela can talk a little bit more about that. That’s important because in Gisela’s experience in Germany, when she came to America, you know, you’ll let Gisela tell the story about her experience with the Lord’s Supper, because I think it’s kind of humorous and sad at the same time. You know, we haven’t, as a group of people in America, been able to experience the fullness of this topic, because we haven’t entered into it with actual wine, where there’s actually been the fermentation, there’s been the work. So I’ll let Gisela speak a little bit more to that.
Case Thorp
Please.
Gisela Kreglinger
Yeah, I think what Randy really pointed out earlier is the wine making process, that you harvest grapes, you crush them, and then the grape juice goes through a fermentation process and it’s transformed into something beautiful and actually long lasting. And that really parallels the work of Christ on the cross. We enter into the work of Christ by looking at the winemaking process, the parallels are incredible. Often Christ is referred to in the Christian tradition as the noble grape, the crown of creation without blemish, the best of creation, the noble grape that was crushed for the sins of the world on a cross, then his death is being transformed into resurrection life, into new life and everlasting life.
Case Thorp
Beautiful.
Gisela Kreglinger
And so sticky grape juice is being transformed into wine that you can keep, some good wines you can keep for hundreds of years. So what kind of food? Yeah, well, I don’t know.
Case Thorp
Yes, not Yellow Tail. Yeah, you don’t probably know about Yellow Tail.
Gisela Kreglinger
But I think it’s not just a random sort of idea that when we have wine in the Eucharist and we hear this is Christ’s blood shed for you, this is just not a random sort of, let’s use wine. But the whole beverage of wine in the winemaking process really unravels and reveals to us what has happened on the cross with Christ being harvested and crushed and pressed and then resurrected from the dead to give us everlasting life. Yeah, and wine is used to talk about this eternal life. For example, when you look at the wedding feast of Cana, when Jesus performs his first miracle of transforming water into wine, obviously on a literal level, Christ enters the celebration of ordinary people and he prolongs their sense of celebration by providing this beautiful wine when the hosts had run out of it. But on a metaphorical level, it also says, He is the Messiah and he is bringing salvation to all who are willing to receive it. And so the abundance of wine at the wedding feast of Cana also is used metaphorically to speak about the wine of salvation that God pours out so generously into all of His creation. So it’s a fascinating reality that we have to come to terms with that wine is used to talk about the life of salvation that Christ brings.
Case Thorp
Yes. Well, as a Presbyterian Christian, I like to explain to our congregants how we don’t have an altar at the front of our sanctuary. We have a communion table. And the theology goes that Christ died on the last altar, the cross. And so the sacrifice does not need to be rehashed, but rather the table in front of our sanctuary is reminiscent of the great feast of Thanksgiving.
And even Scottish Presbyterians that came over to America in the Lowcountry of South Carolina will have tables built into their architecture. And people would take communion by coming up and gathering around the table and sharing. And I’d love to get back to that. Now, episode number five. I love this. What did the Saints Drink? The tale of two wine drinkers. Who are these two and what’s going on there?
Randy Frazee
Yeah, I’ll start there. It’s kind of a, you know, what do the saints drink is a wonderful journey that Gisela takes us on in her writings with the reformers and different people. But the tale of two wine drinkers actually starts with us. We’re two wine drinkers and we just have very different stories. You know, I come from a non-Christian home.
I come from a teetotaler home. My dad had an issue with alcohol and my mom put her foot down and he chose correctly and so I didn’t grow up around wine and didn’t have my first sip of really good wine until age 39 and I’m a pastor, I’m a guy and I’m an American and all of those things are very different for Gisela. So Gisela, you can tell your side. So that’s the tale of one wine drinker and then she’s gonna… We are the two.
Case Thorp
So y’all are the two. Okay, okay.
Gisela Kreglinger
Well, part of that conversation of the richness of wine in the history of the church, we thought it would be really good to sort of break open that story by talking about our own lives because we are contemporary. So hopefully a lot of our viewers will identify with us. And yet we come from very, very different backgrounds. So as Randy mentioned, he grew up in the US and like a lot of families, his family has been deeply shaped and wounded by alcohol abuse. And his father’s choice to not drink alcohol was very, very important for the whole family to be healthy. But I think a lot of people identify with, even yesterday at church, someone came up to me and said, thank you so much for Cup Overflowing, because I’m really looking at the American story in their relationship with alcohol. And he says, on both my side and my wife’s side, we have issues of alcohol abuse. And I think that is a narrative that we need to take seriously. And not just in terms of, we have a problem, let’s go to AA or Al-Anon to help people, but also to realize, well, that was the history of our family. And we can move forward in more constructive ways. M
So Randy’s father’s decision to not drink alcohol, to not bring the addiction into his family and have his family be wounded by it, has actually freed up Randy later in life to say, I want to explore this. Or maybe he was forced into it a little bit. But it freed up Randy to say, you know, I want to explore this. This is a theme in the Bible, and I want to know what it means. And he had that sort of freedom because of the healing that has already taken place.
AndNow I come from a very different background. I come from a Lutheran family in Germany, a wine region that has had wine for at least 1,600 years. And so it’s deeply part of the social and cultural and religious fabric. And so in my family and in my culture, though there is alcohol abuse, it’s not as prevalent. And so people have learned to have a more healthy relationship with wine because wine has been the primary drink of the Franconian people rather than distilled spirits, which is, was, and has been a primary drink in the US. So I think by looking at our two different stories, I thought we were able to open up the conversation on not only is wine an important theme in scripture, it is also a very important theme in the history of Christianity. And it was actually the nuns and monks of the Benedictine and Cistercian and later also the Franciscan order that really developed viticulture in Europe and then the Franciscans on the west coast of the Americas. So I think we used our two stories to sort of break in and then show our audience. This is a really rich theme in the history of the church and we need to reclaim it.
Case Thorp
Well, the church where I serve, First Presbyterian of Orlando, old Southern downtown church, we still have a policy that there is to be no alcohol on campus.
And so our communion obviously is done with grape juice. But I also, I do a lot of consulting with churches and more and more church plants, more and more churches led by millennial pastors are bringing the sacraments into every single Sunday and working real wine back in. And so it’s just interesting to see those generational values shift. Why do you think there is an increased interest in sacramental practice?
Randy Frazee
I think that particularly amongst young people, if you’re following the studies, young people are wanting a touch of transcendence. They’re wanting something that is more than what they have received in previous generations. And the outcome of particularly the American story that has moved away from some foundational truths about life and creation, I think they’re just getting the brunt of it and they’re saying enough is enough. And we want to go back.
Bible sales are up 46 percent. It’s unbelievable and we’re seeing young people, particularly young boys, going back to church like never before. And I think their interest in the sacrament is that they’re finding depth and meaning in it that they have that’s been absent. And you know back to the wine topic, I think that for me, as a pastor, it’s like you know the the Bible has been there the entire time. I had one pastor that when I put out an Instagram post about Gisela and I’s project he direct messaged me and said, pastor I don’t mind a person having a glass of wine every now and again, but why mix it up with the Bible? And I thought he was really in some ways joking and then I direct messaged him back and I said, my friend, I mean, there’s nearly a thousand references to wine and wine related topics in the Bible. Probably what you’re speaking on this Sunday doesn’t even come close to the amount and we have starved the American people of this beautiful gift, both physically and metaphorically, we starved them of it. And by golly, it’s really time to bring this out. And I think that for most American Christians, unlike European and other places in the world, and why Gisela’s work of bringing in what the saints in the past have said about wine, I think shocks everybody, you know, in terms of what the… And I think it would be helpful for Gisela, if you don’t mind, to bring out a couple of examples, if you can call them like Martin Luther or John Calvin or Chrysostom. I like that one too, so.
Gisela Kreglinger
Yeah, well, just to add to Randy’s reflection on, you know, why do we see a younger generation go back to the faith, but be more sacramental? And I think historically, when you look at sort of the more evangelical faith, I think overemphasized, it’s about me and Jesus, you know, it’s Jesus in my heart. And I think in the 21st century, we are so much more aware that no, this is about God redeeming all of creation and our relationship with creation is really important. The way we really get into our relationship with creation is through the Eucharist, through bread, through wine. And it matters what kind of bread we offer and what kind of wine we have. And it matters who produces the bread and who crafts the wine. And it matters how they are crafted and whether the kind of agriculture is used will heal the land or help destroy our top soils. Young people care about that because we are in a real environmental crisis with our top soil, for example. We are losing top soil at an incredible speed. And this country will not feed itself on its own soil if we continue to do that. And I think a younger generation is aware of that. And they want to have a more embodied faith. And that comes through you know, God will not allow us to relate to Him, sort of extracted from creation. This is why Jesus says, this is my body broken for you giving us bread. This is my blood. So it really roots us in creation and really also encourages us that our relationship with God invites us to heal in our relationship with creation with what we consume. You know, we live in the age of consumption. And you already have a little conversation about food as part of your series and how we consume and what we consume and with whom we consume can be a matter of redemption. And I would want to think, at least it’s what I see with our young people here in Birmingham, that a younger generation is so much more aware of that and wants that connection with creation and seeing our relationship in God’s healing presence in the wider world.
Case Thorp
Well, that is a very sensory experience of worship that’s not so stale. Many, many years ago, a dear friend, this was when I lived in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, which is a very sensory and beautiful cultural place to live, far, far away from the young and stale Orlando, Florida. However, she was a dancer and she said to me, she said, Case, I hear you say words up there at communion. And here I am the trained theologian knowing, you know, there’s the words of institution and what all the theology is going on. And she said, that’s good. I’m not, she wasn’t putting that down, but she said, I need the crunch of the bread of my teeth. I need the wash of the juice down my throat to understand in a sensory way how my sins are washed clean.
And so it was so enlightening for me to know of someone else’s experience that was so physically and sensory based that I’ve grown to appreciate that myself. How have you seen your material go in places you didn’t imagine or be used in ways that was surprising or encouraging for you?
Randy Frazee
For me, maybe not so much surprising, but I’m excited about the number of people that are using the study in small groups in homes all over the place. They’re bringing wine to the gathering and they’re finding more people showing up and that are very interested, intrigued. They like wine and the idea of merging their faith with wine. Also a number of people that are showing up that wouldn’t show up to the regular Bible study, but just being, you know, saying, hey, we’re going to talk about wine and the Word and we’re going to have wine and cheese and crackers. And these are people that are exploring their faith that wouldn’t come to the church, whatever. I’m just finding that there are other people that I’m talking to and saying, we just tell them and they’re in, you know, and we’ve invited them to other things and they haven’t been in. So there’s some really wonderful surprises. I guess the surprise is not a surprise. I think it’s back to what Gisela said about our passion for hospitality and bringing people around the table and just a life giving that is, you know, we’re dealing with a loneliness epidemic.
The US Surgeon General said we’re dealing with a lot in America in 2023. And I think one of the solutions is to come back to the table again, which is one of our main sessions, coming back to the table. So it’s not just about wine, but it’s also about wine and bread, wine and food, wine and fellowship. I think wine not only has a very strong symbolism and connection to our faith in Christ, but wine also has a way of helping us with our conversation. And Gisela has a way of putting it that always creates a chuckle in everybody. So I’ll let her chat about that.
Gisela Kreglinger
Yeah, I think, do you mean the holy tipsiness idea? You know, I think one of the most important responses to our gift of salvation and redemption should be the joy that we’re held in God’s embrace. That’s incredible.
And that joy is something that God gives to us, but it’s also something that we have to cultivate in our midst. It’s easy in the humdrum of daily life and the bad news that we always get to forget. We’re God’s beloved. We are held in his harms in the dark times and the good times. And so this joy of being God’s beloved is something that we need to continue to receive and cultivate.
I can’t think of another passage or the Bible speaking about another gift that says God gave wine to make glad the hearts of humanity. The particular purpose of wine as we share it around the table and our meals is to stir joy and conviviality. And so I call that level of intoxic, slight intoxication that opens us up to the gifts of God to one another and to God, holy tipsiness because it’s this receiving and stewarding and sharing of joy that we’re God’s beloved and that he has created this beautiful world that we get to encounter as we feast together. So, yeah, I think that’s really, really important. And I’m also encouraged by how this work around, you know, wine and faith has really drawn people back to the table to share good food and wine and to invite others to the table. But one really surprising way that my work has made itself into the secular world was when recently the Wine Spectator brought out an interview with Kermit Lynch who just published another book and it’s a novel. And a lot of the passages are new in every page. I haven’t read it yet. I’m looking forward to reading it.
It’s about the table and coming back to the table. And then they asked him about it and he said, well, I read this German theologian’s work on wine. And though he’s not a religious person, he felt really inspired by my work to understand how influential wine has been in scripture and in western culture and just integrated that into his work. I’m really very glad about that because part of what I’m hoping is that our embrace of wine as a gift from God will help us bridge over into the secular world that might have rejected the Christian faith because it was too austere, lacking too much joy or the affirmation of the goodness of life. And so by building bridges, we’re inviting people to the table into a life of joy. And I’m really encouraged by that.
Case Thorp
That’s beautiful. Congratulations.
Randy Frazee
I go to Napa quite a bit and I’m going on Saturday for 10 days and I’m helping a church there and I’ve gotten to know a number of winemakers and wine owners, vintners, farmers, you know, the pickers of the grape and those who are believers have for years felt like second class citizens, felt dirty, you know, because in Napa, for the first time, the church that I work out there, for the first time just served real wine in Napa, real wine with communion. Okay. And it just brought joy. And it should have never been that way because when you read the scriptures from Genesis, Revelation, wine is a very, very important topic. So, you know, for the person that’s, you know, not religious or far from God is kind of wakening up. And then now people that are very much into wine are now being brought back in to the fold and going like, wow, we don’t feel so, you know, so disobedient anymore. I feel that we’re in a good place.
Case Thorp
Now, Randy, have you been on one of Gisela’s wine tours?
Randy Frazee
I have not. She has invited me, but I have looked at the itinerary and where she goes and I want to encourage anybody who’s listening. If there’s room, it’s not like there’s hundred million spaces available. If you reach out to Gisela and you get invited, you take advantage of it quickly because it fills up quickly.
Case Thorp
Well, I think to be a good podcaster, I need to have the full experience to really represent your work well. Gisela, tell us what these look like.
Gisela Kreglinger
Yeah, the wine pilgrimages are really, I guess, the most beautiful sort of work that I’ve tried to create by which pilgrims can experience the spirituality of food and wine and agriculture. I take people back to Burgundy, where the Benedictines really took off and started planting all these vineyards. And then, of course, they became very successful. And then the reform movement of the Cistercians also emerged in Burgundy. So we get to go to these historical sites and to the Abbey Saint-Rivant, the Benedictine monks who built an abbey there and then planted all the grout crews. Or we go to a 13th century Cistercian wine cellar and get to sort of touch history. And I think that’s really important for me is that people can experience and touch and walk history as well as experience. How powerful it is when a group for seven days feasts together every day. We have a three course meal with wines every day and that does something to the group. And this year I had two groups. I usually only do one. But the second group at the very final feast, afterwards, I didn’t realize that my assistant (I have a wonderful assistant)… she brought a little stereo with her and we walked to a medieval bridge and the moon was out and she turned on the music and everyone started dancing and we had quite a mix of people, some very conservative Republicans and then liberal Democrats as the thing grew and it was wonderful to see them mix and mingle during the week, but then the climax was when they danced together under the moonlight. And I realized, yeah, this is what the eschatological wedding feast will be like. And I understood for the first time why wedding feasts used to last seven days in Jesus’ time. It really bonds a group together. And it’s such a joy and a privilege for me to watch that unfold.
You know, we really purposefully are trying to hold a space for our pilgrims to explore something and to experience something new. So it’s very unique. It’s very small but very…our pilgrims tell me it’s very transformative in this movement towards joy, towards celebration and to trust that God is benevolent towards us.
Case Thorp
I’m sure.
Randy Frazee
So maybe the solution to the conflict between the Republicans and Democrats in America is a lot simpler than we thought. And that is to combine pilgrimage with Gisela and then conviviality and dancing and then all of our problems will be solved. I like it.
Case Thorp
See? I love it.
Gisela Kreglinger
No, I think just getting them in your neighborhood together on a regular basis around the table with good food and wine. If you were to get together for six months every week for a meal with a little bit of wine, you would see a transformation. You would see a realization how much we actually have in common. Yes, we do disagree on certain issues, but what we do need is we have to reconnect and rebuild the social fabric. And we do that by calling people of different political, social sentiments around the table and to feast on the goodness that God has given us. It’s very simple.
Randy Frazee
And slowly, you know, Americans have been in part of the fast food nation for so long. So they’re just overwhelmed when they gather around a table and waste the evening away. And we had our next door neighbors over last night and it’s like, hey, we’re going nowhere. This is it. This is the destination of the day. And we just told stories until it was time to leave. You know, we went to bed after that because it’s just we, I think if more Americans would just do so well if they would just waste the evening away around a wonderful table of food and wine and it could solve a lot of problems.
Case Thorp
Well, friends, you have inspired me and I know our listeners and our guests. So that’s our, that’s your charge. Everyone go and get several bottles of very fine wine and invite your neighbors, no matter their political or religious dispositions. Randy, Gisela. Thank you so very much. I appreciate your time. If today’s conversation left you wanting more, you can follow Gisela at thespiritualityofwine.com and Randy at randyfrazee.com and of course they’re on different social media channels. You can find their study Wine and the Word: Why God Gave Us the Gift of Wine and the streaming videos through harperchristianresources.com.
Well, friends, that wraps up today’s conversation. Thank you so much for inviting us into your day. Check out our show notes where you will find the resources mentioned here and some more. I’d like to thank you for joining me. So if you’ll go to our website, wecolabor.com, wecolabor.com, give me your email. I’ll send you a 31 day faith and work prompt journal. You’ll find a lot of other resources there as well as on our social channels.
If you could, share this episode. Think of someone who loves wine and maybe who is a little divided politically and send this to them that they might enjoy it too. I’m Case Thorp, and God’s blessings on you.
